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General Category => The Investor Challenge => Topic started by: Moonraker on May 07, 2013, 03:21:24 pm

Title: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Moonraker on May 07, 2013, 03:21:24 pm
Why are they greyed out and not linked ? Spamsters ?
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Patrick on May 07, 2013, 03:24:50 pm
They've decided to hide their holdings. Check at the bottom of the holding page, the option is there. I imagine you're asking because of the new leader. He got lucky with a penny share!

A couple of people suggested the hiding option should be taken away, obviously those in hiding will disagree. I won't change it this year, but haven't decided on next year. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: shanew07 on May 07, 2013, 04:14:29 pm
Is it necessary for a fictional game. Part of the fun is knowing what other guys invested in and how well their shares are doing compared to yours.
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: jaDEB on May 07, 2013, 04:20:39 pm
I think it should not be hidden, that defeats the object of the game.
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 08, 2013, 07:09:18 am
a penny share that hardly trades?
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: jaDEB on May 08, 2013, 09:43:46 am
What concerns me more is that porno_ster is 48th and I am only 223rd . Thus he/she has a better job than me, and they are better at investing.... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Patrick on May 08, 2013, 10:12:31 am
a penny share that hardly trades?

A very strange trade was taken. The share was on 2c, and someone bought 5000 shares at 3c. Why on earth would anyone spend R150 on a penny share when the fees would be just about as much. I can't imagine someone would do that just to get to the top of the leaderboard, but you never know I guess, maybe they have some money riding on a personal challenge...

Thoughts on how to deal with cases like this?
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: gcr on May 08, 2013, 10:27:08 am
I don't think we should be too concerned about aberrations such as these - this competition runs for another 6 1/2 months and I can't see the share maintaining this level through to end December. Also the person who picked these shares has a quandary in future months as they will get 100,000 per month going forward, will they invest in the same counter at the higher price or sit in cash - if they buy in at the higher price they could take a large smack when the price returns to 2 cents. This person is playing in the penny stock realms and as such may well experience the real worth of investing in some of those categories as penny stocks. The important thing is that this is a competition and it is to test your ability to invest over an extended period, penny stocks don't give you that, so we should just sit back and watch how the speculators do manage i this competition. There is no need to change the rules for the competition as they stand at present (though I am still of the opinion that one should be permitted to sell out of one counter either fully or partially once a quarter - called taking profits off the table)   
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Shi on May 08, 2013, 10:59:06 am
I fully agree with GrahamCr about the penny shares in the competition. It is high risk and most of the time you get burned.
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: RexxGrim on May 08, 2013, 11:31:06 am
I also think the hide shares should be removed for next year.  It's nice to see what other guys are doing and in this process you learn much more.

I understand that guys who's got a winner want's to keep it secret to avoid being copied.  Maybe a time delay would be better.  Keep the company details of recent purchases hidden for say a month and then it becomes visable to other members.  Gives you the chance to get the benefit before other people can react on your find.

Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 08, 2013, 12:12:02 pm
a penny share that hardly trades?

A very strange trade was taken. The share was on 2c, and someone bought 5000 shares at 3c. Why on earth would anyone spend R150 on a penny share when the fees would be just about as much. I can't imagine someone would do that just to get to the top of the leaderboard, but you never know I guess, maybe they have some money riding on a personal challenge...

Thoughts on how to deal with cases like this?

Close out value of shares at end should be what the last buyer is prepared to pay and not last sale
that will bring the value of tcs down to 1c a share and not 3 cents. There is usually a big value diff between buy and sell in penny shares or less traded shares.  I bought the 5000 shares for fun, will sometime sell them for 1c  ;D
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Patrick on May 08, 2013, 12:46:36 pm
Close out value of shares at end should be what the last buyer is prepared to pay and not last sale

Any idea where I would get that info on a public website?
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: gcr on May 08, 2013, 12:55:38 pm
I don't think the last bid price is realistic either - you only have to look at the daily auction to see large price differences, and bidders/sellers can depress end of day prices and it would require considerable monitoring to determine last bid price just before auction. Also prices at last day of December will be higher than normal due to window dressing by Fund Managers so lets go along for the ride
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 08, 2013, 01:07:25 pm
http://www.sharenet.co.za/v3/quickshare.php?scode=TCS

tcs has buyers at 1c and sellers at 3c, So realistically the share has a value of 1c and not 3c at which the last trade took place.

Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: gcr on May 08, 2013, 03:18:27 pm
tgg78703 - if you were a seller of tcs you would argue that the real value of the company is 3 cents. Last week there were buyers for Alert Steel at something like 14 cents and sellers in the 60 and 70 cent range - what was/is the real value of Alert. Both are speculative shares so one will often get wide bids/offers prices and that the fund of have some spec shares in ones portfolio (real portfolio not this competition portfolio) that if your punt does come off you can make significant amounts of money, but you need to limit such spec shares - I limit my spec shares to 3 to 4% of total portfolio
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Bundu on May 08, 2013, 03:43:12 pm
tgg78703 - if you were a seller of tcs you would argue that the real value of the company is 3 cents. Last week there were buyers for Alert Steel at something like 14 cents and sellers in the 60 and 70 cent range - what was/is the real value of Alert. Both are speculative shares so one will often get wide bids/offers prices and that the fund of have some spec shares in ones portfolio (real portfolio not this competition portfolio) that if your punt does come off you can make significant amounts of money, but you need to limit such spec shares - I limit my spec shares to 3 to 4% of total portfolio

If you're a seller, surely you can only sell to the available buyers - works the same when you try and sell ANYTHING.
If we go the tgg78703 route, which I agree with, the seller still gets the benefit that the specific buyer will take ALL his shares at that price, which mostly is not the case when you sell larger lots of shares that don't trade a lot
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 08, 2013, 04:38:00 pm
at least leave the alt x shares out of the game

Manipulation is possible.

Selco has buyers at 17 and sellers at 44.
Bid   17
Bid volume   154880
Offer   44
Offer volume   8444
All trading data is 15 minutes delayed

So I go to the jse and buy a few selco at 44 and them offer them for sale at 18.

I then join the game and Buy 2.7m selco at 18, as quoted on the jse.

I go back to the jse and buy my few selco at 18 and a few at the next offer which is 44.

Back at the game my R500 000 becomes R1.22m , 244% growth. But in reality I can only sell 154880 of them at 17c
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Patrick on May 08, 2013, 05:20:51 pm
at least leave the alt x shares out of the game

Thoughts from the others?

tgg78703 do you know where I could find a list of the altx shares?
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 08, 2013, 05:57:46 pm
http://www.jse.co.za/How-To-List/AltX/AltX_Listed_companies.aspx

I think this is them
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Goliath on May 08, 2013, 07:26:50 pm
at least leave the alt x shares out of the game

Thoughts from the others?

tgg78703 do you know where I could find a list of the altx shares?

Not all of them, just the really pennystock stuff! Think 2 or 3 of my shares is on the Alt X  :)
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Patrick on May 08, 2013, 10:21:40 pm
Ok let's look at the first issue, hiding your holdings. Since it seems that practically everyone wants everything visible I suggest the following. Instead of allowing the holdings to be hidden, we allow members to put a delay on the holdings, so you can only see what they've bought a week or two (is that long enough) later.

Now as this would be a rule change mid-competition, something I don't really like, we handle it democratically. I'll start a vote next week, and put a notice in the monthly deposit email asking members to vote. Then we give it until mid June to give everyone a chance to vote. As it's a change, we'll deal with it like a constitution change. Ie we need a two-thirds majority to change the rule.

Does that work for most?

On the penny share issue I'll let the debate continue for a while since feelings still appear mixed.
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: gcr on May 09, 2013, 09:26:41 am
I would not exclude penny shares - after all this is an investor competition with an end date of December. Let those who wish to buy penny stock do so and lets see how successful they are when competition ends. Also those who wish to purchase shares on the open market to try and move the price for the competition then maybe they must do it. If you are not in front of the curve chances are you may get burnt trying to move the market and also be aware that there may be other people on the market who are also trying to influence the market and may have deep pockets
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Bundu on May 09, 2013, 06:10:32 pm
I think liquidity is a greater problem than penny stocks (although they are often the same stock)


edit: Alternatively, we could value a portfolio using the price of the highest buyer - that would knock some portfolios down to size - and in reality, that is what a portfolios value truly is at any moment
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 09, 2013, 06:13:36 pm
I don,t think a vote is needed about keeping a portfolio private, just add up the private vs non private portfolios and the majority wins.

This is after all just a game, it is not that there is money to be won. It is about broadening your horizons and helping each other gain more insight into investing.

So how is a private portfolio going to help 
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Bundu on May 09, 2013, 06:14:57 pm
I don,t think a vote is needed about keeping a portfolio private, just add up the private vs non private portfolios and the majority wins.

This is after all just a game, it is not that there is money to be won. It is about broadening your horizons and helping each other gain more insight into investing.

So how is a private portfolio going to help

I agree +1
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 09, 2013, 06:20:56 pm
I think liquidity is a greater problem than penny stocks (although they are often the same stock)


edit: Alternatively, we could value a portfolio using the price of the highest buyer - that would knock some portfolios down to size - and in reality, that is what a portfolios value truly is at any moment

Agree this after all an investor game , not speculator game
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 09, 2013, 06:41:02 pm
see that sll had a 50 % gain today on a trade of 1500 shares, wtf who buys for R45 plus costs on the jse. That trade must be related to a game or drunken bet somewhere. that trade at 3c cost about 9c a share.

That share has not traded near those levels since about 2009, when it was 20c. So someone is going to wait a bit to recoup or double R45
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Bundu on May 09, 2013, 06:58:33 pm
yip..... and in the past 6 months, only R130k of their shares have been traded - 6MONTHS!
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Aragorn on May 10, 2013, 09:08:10 am
Let's have the vote for private or non-private. I believe that all portfolio's should be visible - it is afterall just a game. And to insinuate that someone does not want another to see their portfolio is a bit pie in the sky, as you only really want to check on some of the top guys as to "how did they get that right" or 'what did they buy to give them a boost". You can't then go and replicate their portfolio as it will be too late in the game - the profit has already been made.

Regarding Penny shares - I agree with a number of the posts here, but we can't have it both ways. There are many solutions to solve the issues listed, and we can't have them all. One example - We need to consider if we should limit the trades to only liquid shares or do we continue with all shares. If we decide on only liquid shares, Patrick will have an admin nightmare in trying to maintain a list of liquid shares. What if a liquid share becomes illiquid? how do we treat those who had already purchased it - do we now refuse them the option to add more of this share to their portfolio - do we dump them for cash at last price? Where do you draw the actual line between liquid and illiquid? Who will monitor this? The will then be endless debates on those "marginal" items - are they liquid or illiquid. If we stay as we are with all shares, we then live with the consequences of "lucky punts".

I do believe that the competion may require additional refinement to make it more realistic, but as long as we are all playing on the same field with the same rules, then all things are equal.
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: tgg78703 on May 10, 2013, 11:56:07 am
From leader to 40 % loss on one trade
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: gcr on May 10, 2013, 12:04:40 pm
yip..... and in the past 6 months, only R130k of their shares have been traded - 6MONTHS!

I have an order on to sell some of my Cashbuild shares and the price asking is R 135 (currently R 122.80) but during the auction someone purchased 2 of my offered shares - why I don't know but whoever it was made my sale hugely expensive as I got R 270 but incurred R 92.70 as a minimum brokerage charge. So yes there are some very stupid operators out in the market, who don't look at the all in costs before doing a deal 
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Patrick on May 10, 2013, 12:17:18 pm
From leader to 40 % loss on one trade

Just had a chuckle at that myself!
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Orca on May 10, 2013, 05:58:09 pm
What concerns me more is that porno_ster is 48th and I am only 223rd . Thus he/she has a better job than me, and they are better at investing.... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
You being screwed pal. Porno is on top and you on the bottom.
Title: Re: Meaning of greyed out names - Leaderboard ?
Post by: Bundu on May 10, 2013, 06:43:26 pm
yip..... and in the past 6 months, only R130k of their shares have been traded - 6MONTHS!

I have an order on to sell some of my Cashbuild shares and the price asking is R 135 (currently R 122.80) but during the auction someone purchased 2 of my offered shares - why I don't know but whoever it was made my sale hugely expensive as I got R 270 but incurred R 92.70 as a minimum brokerage charge. So yes there are some very stupid operators out in the market, who don't look at the all in costs before doing a deal

that actually happens quite often in many shares - I think it's people manipulating the price to get it to move in a certain direction, so that they can buy or sell larger lots, then that small trades cost is insignificant, if they have managed to move the price and expectation of other buy/sellers - happens more with illiquid shares though