The JSE and finance forum for South Africa
General Category => The Investor Challenge => Topic started by: tgg78703 on April 23, 2013, 09:58:58 pm
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these competitions have always had a issue in the past where someone buys shares that are not very liquid, e,g . If I had bought selco with all my money I would be 131% up today.
but that not be a true reflection as they hardly trade and there would be no hope of me selling or realising my profit.
Should you not have a cap on purchases related to the shares average volume
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Thoughts from the rest?
How often would you be able to do this?
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My view is that this is an "investor" challenge, and I for one treat it like that. As the dude in charge of the investment club I'm trying to simulate what I would've done if I were to invest R400k worth of our money.
OP does have a valid point though, sure his club member would be ecstatic over that return, but less of they lost 80% odd on the day.
I know I will never win this competition as one of the guys with all their money in a single equity is bound to get it right, I use this as a measure against myself and the ALSI to see my performance.
Just to quickly derail here....
Why not clone this competition and make a trading simulation! I not sure how much work that would entail, but I'm pretty sure you going to create huge traffic and maybe really earn some moola here for all the hard work you have put in.
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It would be beneficial to only be able to trade in liquid shares, but that would bring on extra admin on the part of Patrick who would need to maintain a list of liquid shares as opposed to a feed of all shares - same with suspended items. This could then become a daily task and I believe a waste of effort. I don't believe that those who will only buy into illiquid stocks will see a continual rise in value over a year - i.e. attempt to get bragging rights by winning the competition.
I second Krypt0n1te in what he states regarding measuring oneself against ALSI. It may be a competition, but I feel its against yourself (your current actual investment activities) vs what you could have done.
And 85 punters entered so far - well done.
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My view is that this is an "investor" challenge, and I for one treat it like that. As the dude in charge of the investment club I'm trying to simulate what I would've done if I were to invest R400k worth of our money.
OP does have a valid point though, sure his club member would be ecstatic over that return, but less of they lost 80% odd on the day.
I know I will never win this competition as one of the guys with all their money in a single equity is bound to get it right, I use this as a measure against myself and the ALSI to see my performance.
Just to quickly derail here....
Why not clone this competition and make a trading simulation! I not sure how much work that would entail, but I'm pretty sure you going to create huge traffic and maybe really earn some moola here for all the hard work you have put in.
Cool, going to try it out!
Sanlam used to have a similar challenge like this. You only had a once off amount to start with, lets say R100 000, and the winner is the person with the most value at the end date. Some trading were allowed, but IIRC you could only sell if you sell ALL of a certain share, and you could only buy more of a certain share, if you first sell them all. Kind of like a treating your investments as seperate batches. I would say that allowing at least an all sell of certain share would make sense, because if you made a bad investment in a share that continues to drop in price, the natural option would be to sell it to minimise your losses.
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My view is that this is an "investor" challenge, and I for one treat it like that. As the dude in charge of the investment club I'm trying to simulate what I would've done if I were to invest R400k worth of our money.
OP does have a valid point though, sure his club member would be ecstatic over that return, but less of they lost 80% odd on the day.
I know I will never win this competition as one of the guys with all their money in a single equity is bound to get it right, I use this as a measure against myself and the ALSI to see my performance.
Just to quickly derail here....
Why not clone this competition and make a trading simulation! I not sure how much work that would entail, but I'm pretty sure you going to create huge traffic and maybe really earn some moola here for all the hard work you have put in.
Cool, going to try it out!
Sanlam used to have a similar challenge like this. You only had a once off amount to start with, lets say R100 000, and the winner is the person with the most value at the end date. Some trading were allowed, but IIRC you could only sell if you sell ALL of a certain share, and you could only buy more of a certain share, if you first sell them all. Kind of like a treating your investments as seperate batches. I would say that allowing at least an all sell of certain share would make sense, because if you made a bad investment in a share that continues to drop in price, the natural option would be to sell it to minimise your losses.
How would the tax man see that sale? Would that on it's own be enough to class you as a trader?
Maybe next year I'll run a trading contest, either in parallel or integrated with this one. Allow sales, but have two leaderboards, one for the investors, and one for traders. It might be interesting to see how they compare.
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My view is that this is an "investor" challenge, and I for one treat it like that. As the dude in charge of the investment club I'm trying to simulate what I would've done if I were to invest R400k worth of our money.
OP does have a valid point though, sure his club member would be ecstatic over that return, but less of they lost 80% odd on the day.
I know I will never win this competition as one of the guys with all their money in a single equity is bound to get it right, I use this as a measure against myself and the ALSI to see my performance.
Just to quickly derail here....
Why not clone this competition and make a trading simulation! I not sure how much work that would entail, but I'm pretty sure you going to create huge traffic and maybe really earn some moola here for all the hard work you have put in.
Cool, going to try it out!
Sanlam used to have a similar challenge like this. You only had a once off amount to start with, lets say R100 000, and the winner is the person with the most value at the end date. Some trading were allowed, but IIRC you could only sell if you sell ALL of a certain share, and you could only buy more of a certain share, if you first sell them all. Kind of like a treating your investments as seperate batches. I would say that allowing at least an all sell of certain share would make sense, because if you made a bad investment in a share that continues to drop in price, the natural option would be to sell it to minimise your losses.
How would the tax man see that sale? Would that on it's own be enough to class you as a trader?
Maybe next year I'll run a trading contest, either in parallel or integrated with this one. Allow sales, but have two leaderboards, one for the investors, and one for traders. It might be interesting to see how they compare.
Well, if you are not actively selling your shares in order to make PROFIT, then you will not really be seen as a trader. You are allowed to sell your assets in order to limit or stop your losses (which is OK because there will not be any profit anyway). I also prefer a competition where it is more about smart investing than active trading. But as there is a leaderboard and there is a competition, one would like to be able to sell a share that is consisitently going into the negative, instead of holding on to it. In real life I would probably hold on to a share for at least 3 months before actually selling it, and as this is a 12 month competition I guess it is OK. With the Sanlam investment challenge, I think the only reason for the limited trading allowance was exactly to limit excessive trading and thus level the playing field between "normal" people and actual active traders that sit night and day. Also, I would think the software of the program would require a lot more sophistication as the trading increases. Only allowing people to sell if they dispose of all of a particular share, limits the amount of trading as one has to think twice before just selling. You could also not buy more of a share you currently had, unless you sold your current lot.
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Well, if you are not actively selling your shares in order to make PROFIT, then you will not really be seen as a trader. You are allowed to sell your assets in order to limit or stop your losses (which is OK because there will not be any profit anyway). I also prefer a competition where it is more about smart investing than active trading. But as there is a leaderboard and there is a competition, one would like to be able to sell a share that is consisitently going into the negative, instead of holding on to it. In real life I would probably hold on to a share for at least 3 months before actually selling it, and as this is a 12 month competition I guess it is OK. With the Sanlam investment challenge, I think the only reason for the limited trading allowance was exactly to limit excessive trading and thus level the playing field between "normal" people and actual active traders that sit night and day. Also, I would think the software of the program would require a lot more sophistication as the trading increases. Only allowing people to sell if they dispose of all of a particular share, limits the amount of trading as one has to think twice before just selling. You could also not buy more of a share you currently had, unless you sold your current lot.
Ah thanks for that! Maybe I should consider allowing sales for a loss then! I'll see. By next year we should all have a good idea as to the best format, this was just how I thought it should run for now.
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Maybe you should consider a sell option, any prudent investor will get out of the market if the tide turns and we have a 2009 all over. Or a certain sector that is invested in makes a major dive.
The competition is only till december so it not like it is actually investing long term. You have long term shares , medium term shares and short term shares. For investor status you will have to run it for 5 years.
Allow one sell of total holding in a share.
Also a thing to consider is the diff between buying and selling price. There are some shares that have almost a 10% diff. So I would suggest is that when your competition closes all investors are allocated the last price they could sell their shares for and not the last trade price. There are some small caps bought that be manipulated
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It seems there is more support for selling than not selling, so most likely that'll happen next year as I don't want to change the rules during a comp run. There could be quite a lot of changes, let me know if you have more ideas. I may have a vote on a couple of topics later.
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If you allow for sales then I think it goes against the grain of the competition which is an "investment competition" and the very essence is to remain in a particular counter for the longer term rather than trying to turn this competition into a trading operation. If the tide turns because of a broad pull back chances are that it will affect all investors in the competition across the board. If one looks at the shares chosen by investors some have tried to pick penny shares with a view to making significant gains - but this is only likely to happen over the short term - so its a case of - you pays your money and you reap what you sow. If you do allow sales then maybe you should restrict it to only one sale a month - this could create an admin nightmare for yourself, and similar fees must be imposed as for buying of shares
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If you allow for sales then I think it goes against the grain of the competition which is an "investment competition" and the very essence is to remain in a particular counter for the longer term rather than trying to turn this competition into a trading operation. If the tide turns because of a broad pull back chances are that it will affect all investors in the competition across the board. If one looks at the shares chosen by investors some have tried to pick penny shares with a view to making significant gains - but this is only likely to happen over the short term - so its a case of - you pays your money and you reap what you sow. If you do allow sales then maybe you should restrict it to only one sale a month - this could create an admin nightmare for yourself, and similar fees must be imposed as for buying of shares
My thinking was either one of two things, a) only allow selling at a loss (ie avoid the tax-man's definition of trading), or b) running two parallel leaderboards. One for traders and one for investors. If someone sells at profit they are automatically marked as a trader.
There's still a few months to iron this out so I'm sure we'll find something that works. My goal with this website was an education into investment, so I really didn't want it to be a trading contest. I feel investment is something South Africans don't think about enough, and even more so when it comes to equity investment, the best performing class.
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Agree with your sentiments - it serves little purpose bringing a trader mindset to an investment scenario
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I just had a bright idea over a cold one. To limit competitors that punt their Grand Parents, Parents, Siblings and other elderly people's pension money into a Penny Stock gamble, the lowest 20% of the entrants must pay Patrick R150.00 at year end. Most of them will be here anyway. Then Patrick can pay the winner 10% of the takings.
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My thinking was either one of two things, a) only allow selling at a loss (ie avoid the tax-man's definition of trading), or b) running two parallel leaderboards. One for traders and one for investors. If someone sells at profit they are automatically marked as a trader.
There's still a few months to iron this out so I'm sure we'll find something that works. My goal with this website was an education into investment, so I really didn't want it to be a trading contest. I feel investment is something South Africans don't think about enough, and even more so when it comes to equity investment, the best performing class.
I think, selling at loss before the 3 year rule, will mean that one can't offset that loss against a capital gain. I say this because the annual exclusion rate for instance, applies to both gains and losses i.e. cuts both ways, and so I assume would the 3 year rule.
Can anyone confirm ?
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Question, since this is turning out to be quite fun, will you run/reset this comp every year?
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Definitely. I'll most likely put some ads on the site to make it self sustaining.
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Awesome!
Btw, can you change the formatting of the money value on the leaderboard? The decimals are not set to two places (ie. round numbers display as R5000 instead of R5000.00 and 20c display as R0.2 instead of R0.20)
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;D just caught my eye, we have a Peanut, a Nakedpeanut and a Hamster ;D have to keep them apart!
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Hamster better be careful, there's a HoundDog around. We could always ask Robocop to keep an eye on things.
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Well done Patrick - I see the number of competitors has gone through 200 - that's awesum
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Well done Patrick - I see the number of competitors has gone through 200 - that's awesum
I like
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1291131680_two-thumbs-up.jpg)
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;D just caught my eye, we have a Peanut, a Nakedpeanut and a Hamster ;D have to keep them apart!
Sh*t's about to get REAL up in here!
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Guess who's in the top 5 8)
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Hi Patrick
Could you show the ALSI on the leaderboard so that we can see if we at least outperform the ALSI?
Transferred to requests :o
Also vote that share portfolios can't be hidden 8)
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How many people have more than one portfolio?
How about a table for the biggest gainers in a week ?
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How many people have more than one portfolio?
How about a table for the biggest gainers in a week ?
1) No idea.
2) Good idea, I'll see if I can do that.
Oh and my screeb is working but has a bright gold bar across the top. Does that also mean it's broken ;D
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these competitions have always had a issue in the past where someone buys shares that are not very liquid, e,g . If I had bought selco with all my money I would be 131% up today.
but that not be a true reflection as they hardly trade and there would be no hope of me selling or realising my profit.
Should you not have a cap on purchases related to the shares average volume
Back on this issue again since we have some unrealistic numbers on top of the board. What if we had a minimum share price allowed for purchase. A value of R1 (just an example, could be anything) minimum would stop the really un-tradable penny shares, but still allow some of the altx board like OLG which actually does trade. Only for next year though...
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The principles around CGT are that you pay on the total profit you make between base cost and selling prices (buying and selling brokerage is incorporated) so one is talking net profit. However if you sustain a loss in terms of share operations then that loss can be rolled over to the next tax year and can be used to low the CGT assessment
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As I am a Fund Manager, I would surely not buy stocks at 1c for my investors. Especially not 1 or 3 stocks at that price.
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TCS.
Last 10 Trades of the day
Date PDT Price Volume
23/05 17:00 OCP 3 0
23/05 13:13 AT 3 33,333
nut
Last 10 Trades of the day
Date PDT Price Volume
23/05 17:00 OCP 2 0
23/05 09:12 AT 2 8,611
Maybe the entrant wants to prove a point. that 1c shares can do something, but is really not in the spirit of the game, so I ignore those positions when looking at the leaders
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The Investor Challenge
Who's the best investment club chairman around.
This is the challenge. Not the individual gamblers with their 1c portfolios that jump up 300% in a day!!! They should be deleted from this as they did not read the above when they entered. Surely they know that at these prices they would NEVER get filled or be able to sell. The guy on top now goes from No 1 to No 240 in one day.
I know you agree with me Patrick, but we must get rid of them. Problem is How?
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It's a game, not real life. I don't really care what happens. It's just fun to do something different and play with the system. I waited for a couple stocks to hit 1c before I bought them. Tomorrow I may be down to 200th place. No worries.
Anyways, looking at the top 20, most people have the bulk of their cash invested in one or two stocks. How can picking a stock or two make someone the best investment club chairman? It's similar to what I did but their stocks just cost more and are less volatile.
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Perhaps a suggestion to our fantastic administrator for an improvement that would negate exceptional items in this penny stock issue.
When shares are bought, one cannot purchase more shares than what were actually traded for that item in the previous (or current) trading period. That would prevent someone from investing 200K is a share that only traded 20K. That should level the playing field a bit without preventing someone from actually investing in such items.
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At the moment all players are within the rules, but as tgg said earlier, it's not really within the spirit of the game.
Edit: Lets give it a little time. From next month the profiles will be open, so we can see who invested well and who is misusing the system. In any case, there's likely to be a fall from the top as quick as the rise to get there.
For next year there will have to be a filter to stop people from buying shares they generally could not, I'm still looking for a decent way to get those numbers. Is there a list somewhere of total monthly volume?
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Maybe a simpler change to the rules going forward is that no more than 15% of ones portfolio may consist of penny stocks. We just need to be aware that by imposing too many rules, it has the potential to chase away entrants. This competition is all about "investor challenge" so sinking all your annual investments into penny stocks is not something a sane investor would do, and especially if it was their pension money. Would I "invest" 15% of my real portfolio into penny stocks or high risk stocks - not on your life, currently my portfolio has 1% in real high risk shares like Alert Steel and Poynting - but I will use them (if they stay where they are) next tax year to reduce CGT.
I would suggest that Patrick gets submissions from entrants as to rule changes required by entrants and that theses are consolidated and placed on this forum for debate and those that are carried are incorporated in the rules from 2014 onwards 8)
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Sharenet has a list of liquid stocks in their challenge. Hint.
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The exploitation of the penny stocks is caused because the programme allows one to buy shares at the last traded price and not the available sellers price.
In the game I can buy a share for 1c if that was the last traded , but on the JSe the share will cost me 3c as that is what the sellers offer price is.
One example is slo, last traded 39, sellers 38 buyers 21.
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Already got a short list of what I want to buy next week when the next 100K becomes available. Hopefully they stay where they are for a little while longer.
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MTA has woken up from her slumber so watch out Patrick. Here I come.
Oh dear. Down goes my CML.
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What a run. Tired now. Only Patrick in front of me. He is my benchmark to beat. I hate loosing.
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What a run. Tired now. Only Patrick in front of me. He is my benchmark to beat. I hate loosing.
Finally some competition! Saturday is payday, are you buying more of the same or are you going to venture out of the tri-partite alliance ;D
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Last I looked there were 299 competitors - not bad for a new competition - well done Patrick 8)
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What a run. Tired now. Only Patrick in front of me. He is my benchmark to beat. I hate loosing.
Finally some competition! Saturday is payday, are you buying more of the same or are you going to venture out of the tri-partite alliance ;D
Same again. I know these stocks too well to diversify.
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Last I looked there were 299 competitors - not bad for a new competition - well done Patrick 8)
300 up :TU:
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3734/female3002011.jpg)
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Why is the site not updating prices
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The JSE equity price feed is down at the moment. Hopefully it'll be back soon.
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what happens if you buy cml today, price ex div on monday, dividend paid on friday
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You'd lose out. For next year I'll probably have to look into closing the purchases outside of trading hours.
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Not sure how your system works but could use the first traded price per the morning auction
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is it possible for you show shares that have gained or lost most since you started
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is it possible for you show shares that have gained or lost most since you started
Only since they were first purchased. I don't record price fluctuations. Take a look here: http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/com_share_stats.php
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interesting, see quite a few holders of a african bank and capitec
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interesting, see quite a few holders of a african bank and capitec
Here's the top 30 in rand spent all time:
CML 8855573.2600
SAB 6507873.9700
CPI 5579029.7900
VOD 4243856.8100
CFR 4048109.4200
APN 3976631.2800
NPN 3836410.2400
SOL 3768124.7000
MTN 3667848.0700
WHL 3600735.7900
BIL 3513494.2700
OML 2921489.4700
ABL 2808355.1500
STX40 2787396.4700
STXIND 2564264.4200
FSR 2352061.2800
PNC 2318580.8100
SGL 2211416.4500
KIO 2169383.8000
BTI 2127108.5200
ANG 1976693.4600
AGL 1919571.3900
MSM 1796031.2900
BIO 1774552.9500
JDG 1743920.0200
CGR 1720180.7900
AIP 1708119.5600
SHP 1552253.1700
FBR 1548412.4300
STXDIV 1527328.7600
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I appeal. CML should be my trademark stock. I have hyped it since 2010 when I posted my "Retiring" thread and every Tom Dick and Harry dissed me as it was an unknown stock. Now every Tom's Dick has it in their portfolio. This is my stock and have copy write on it. >:D
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The sensible investor will pick a couple of shares which have consistently done well as bankers with a view to achieving a 15% portfolio growth p.a. ;D
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MTA has woken up from her slumber so watch out Patrick. Here I come.
Oh dear. Down goes my CML.
I've been overtaken :'(
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MTA has woken up from her slumber so watch out Patrick. Here I come.
Oh dear. Down goes my CML.
I've been overtaken :'(
:LHST: Now if I can stay above.
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If there is a rights issue on a stock example RBA, will this come through on the our portfolio's or will this not cater for it in the investor challenge?
Shareholders were notified by way of a SENS announcement on 2 April, 30 April, 24
May and 31 May 2013 that the directors of RBA have decided to raise R10 million by
way of a partially underwritten rights offer, through the issue of 125 000 000 ordinary
shares at a subscription price of 8 cents per share in the ratio of 28.69 new ordinary
shares for every 100 ordinary shares held in RBA at the close of business on the record
date. The rights offer has been underwritten to a total of R 9.145 million.
The circular to shareholders has been approved by the JSE. There are no further
conditions precedent and therefore the rights offer will proceed as per the timetable
below.
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I was lying about a position 228 2 weeks ago, shares are frightening
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I appeal. CML should be my trademark stock. I have hyped it since 2010 when I posted my "Retiring" thread and every Tom Dick and Harry dissed me as it was an unknown stock. Now every Tom's Dick has it in their portfolio. This is my stock and have copy write on it. >:D
I would divest if I was you, sheep to the slaughter,
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If there is a rights issue on a stock example RBA, will this come through on the our portfolio's or will this not cater for it in the investor challenge?
Tough one, could you explain in english what it means? If I understand right, all holders will get 28.69 shares per 100 shares held? What happens to people who are due fractions of a share?
How would you imagine it should be handled?
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I was lying about a position 228 2 weeks ago, shares are frightening
Tell me about it! This site is going to save me an absolute fortune. Every now and then my ego says I can outsmart the indexes :wtf:
Back to buying ETFs with my cash...
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Same here. 100% into STXIND and just go with the flow. No more worries. By the way, does the STX performance include divies reinvested?
Just been researching the INDI. A long term smooth chart with ave returns of 35 to 40% pa. I was pleasantly surprised that the chart is so smooth with hardly any volatility. I cannot post a chart now but the Stochastic and RSI shows a BUY NOW. Both are at bottom and now up trending.
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Patrick. If most people have equities, would it not be great to have an index in the "Groups" to beat? I vote the INDI.
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Patrick. If most people have equities, would it not be great to have an index in the "Groups" to beat? I vote the INDI.
Not sure I follow you here, the INDI and the top40 are on the leaderboard already, explain.
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Not on the LeaderBoard Patrick. It is already there. On the "Groups". It is not there and would be great to have an index to beat in the "groups" section as well.
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maybe a thought for next year, no more than 25 % being able to be invested in one share. No real fund investor would do that anyway.
I might make a killing with my 50% in sgl :)
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Not on the LeaderBoard Patrick. It is already there. On the "Groups". It is not there and would be great to have an index to beat in the "groups" section as well.
Like so: http://www.shareforum.co.za/competition/com_groups.php
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Patrick, my screen is not working again. Last I checked I was about 317th, where is I now? :P
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Patrick, my screen is not working again. Last I checked I was about 317th, where is I now? :P
Can you speak a little louder, I can't hear you over that clanging sound :D(http://www.bullsnuts.com.au/wp-content/themes/thesis_184/custom/images/Chrome-Truck-nuts/tcbrass.jpg)
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My shares.
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Anyone want to speculate why central rand gold (CRD) traded at 195 cents compared to it's normal 6c per share?
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Just about everything I have is in the negative. Not very encouraging :D
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Seems to have happened yesterday, but there must be some error somewhere as if I log onto fnb ittells me buyers 4c sellers 6c , sharenet says buyers R1.70 sellers R1.90.
There also appears to be a calcualation error on gizmmo,s portfolio, he does not own own crd, I get to his toal holding when adding up his portfolio or is something not showing
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Seems to have happened yesterday, but there must be some error somewhere as if I log onto fnb ittells me buyers 4c sellers 6c , sharenet says buyers R1.70 sellers R1.90.
There also appears to be a calcualation error on gizmmo,s portfolio, he does not own own crd, I get to his toal holding when adding up his portfolio or is something not showing
Absa also has R1.70 and R1.90. Quite strange. No calculation error on gizmmo's profile, he's just delaying his holdings by 14 days, and only bought CRD recently.
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would rather see 14p than 0.3p any day. I know we have 50 times less shares, but we also have 50 times less shares in the market (for now). It means that if we can really sort out production & keep cash tight this shares has a chance in time to be very good share to be in. The consolidation had to happen as just to many shares in issue. Good luck and IMHO.Today 00:44OpiumRE: Conned13.50No Opinion
I wouldn't. You are not worse off in this particular case, IMO. Makes sense if CRND is to stay in the FTSE.Mon 22:29lawco280Conned13.50No Opinion
Yes we have been , i'm selling first thing in the morning at a 60% loss because this is going all the way down to nothing, consolidation is a way of stealing peoples money, take your money out before its all gone.
See they talking about a share consolidqation in the uk. did it happen here as well
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read the results of their agm, 49 of each 50 shares have become deferred shares
http://demo.crg-sa.com/wp-content/uploads/CRD%20AGM%20SENS%20RNS%20Announcement%20V4%20070613.pdf
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Thanks for that. I'm not familiar with deferred shares, but for the competition, does that mean I need to decrease the number of all the CRD shares by a factor of 50?
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That the way I understand it and also the the guys in the uk are talking
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Would it be possible to limit shares purchased to be above a certain value? Given that this is an "investor" challenge the current winning strategy of buying penny stocks (literally - the leader has only bought shares that cost 1c) is highly unrealistic. Buying shares that you'd be hard pressed to sell and are probably in real danger of being delisted/liquidated is harldy a sane real world investing strategy.
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I don't want to add too many rules during the competition run, but for next year there'll be some sort of filter to remove the real penny shares. Quite likely a cost minimum as that is the simplest to implement, but I may try get a list of shares that are illiquid and filter those out too.
As for a penny share holder leading the chart, I think most of the users are smart enough to simply ignore penny share holders!
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I did some research on Penny Stocks and found that any stock under 10 in any currency is regarded a penny stock these days. Regardless of it's market cap.
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As I slowly make my way further down the leaderboard with the help of CPI, MMI and WHL, I start to get excited that I may soon be in the bottom 50% of the table....... :'(
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Just been browsing thru some of the portfolio's and I think it would be beneficial to start another topic to discuss them (one at a time of course) - what u say. For example, out of the top 5, 3 members only have 1 share. Not good practise in reality but it is working for them.
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Suits me fine, go right ahead.
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Patrick. Can you highlight the STXIND index in the groups as it is on the LeaderBoard? Thanks.
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Patrick. Can you highlight the STXIND index in the groups as it is on the LeaderBoard? Thanks.
Done
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Thanks Patrick.
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Now don't you guys forget that I should be 3% higher due to my inability to register for a day. :frustrated: I will remind yous from time to time.
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Is a time like this that the rules of the game work against it. If i was an investment manager , I would have sold everything last week. But cannot do that in the game, so massive loss this week.
On my personal jse portfolio, I cashed in last week and now have my profits booked. Will sit on the sideline till things normalise.
But that is how you learn the game ;D
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Now you pay tax on your gains as a Trader. Every cent that you gained will be added to any other income you have and be taxed accordingly.
This is the only thing that kept me from offloading all my shares last week. Are you already classed as a trader tgg or have you held your shares for long enough not to be seen as a trader?
As for the contest, next year you'd be able to decide whether you're a trader or investor.
Patrick - if you are going to profile people as traders next year then you should apply tax criteria to those who wish to be treated as a trader. Also once you are treated as a trader you can't be treated as an investor at the drop of a hat - this principle applies when dealing with SARS as they want proof that you are no longer to be categorised as a trader
However to ensure that the competition doesn't become stale maybe allow full/partial sale of part of ones portfolio (arbitrarily 40%) after holding the stock for 12 months, or if this is too difficult then set a window (say 2 weeks) when investors can sell a portion of their portfolio. Another alternative is to run 2 competitions one for investors and another for traders and people if they want can choose either/or or both
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Patrick - if you are going to profile people as traders next year then you should apply tax criteria to those who wish to be treated as a trader. Also once you are treated as a trader you can't be treated as an investor at the drop of a hat - this principle applies when dealing with SARS as they want proof that you are no longer to be categorised as a trader
However to ensure that the competition doesn't become stale maybe allow full/partial sale of part of ones portfolio (arbitrarily 40%) after holding the stock for 12 months, or if this is too difficult then set a window (say 2 weeks) when investors can sell a portion of their portfolio. Another alternative is to run 2 competitions one for investors and another for traders and people if they want can choose either/or or both
Still a long way to go before next year, but at the moment the thoughts are to have one competition, everyone can sell shares at a loss. If you want to sell shares at a profit you need to change your profile to a trader profile. This will affect which leaderboard you fall onto. There will be one for traders, and another for investors. Perhaps I could do a combined one where the profits of traders are penalised by a percentage to simulate tax. All thoughts for now.
Note that you won't be able to hold a stock for over 12 months, as all holdings will be zeroed again next year. Everyone deserves a second chance right :)
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Oops. I just let one off there. Close your nose Patrick :LHST:
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Patrick - I just noticed that when I added to my Ellies Holdings (ELI) it did not pull the counter name through yet others that I added to do reflect the name
On another matter I notice that you show dividends earned based on holdings in various counters - can you (for next year) keep reflecting dividends earned but also "pay" these dividends into the "trading account" so that we can reinvest these dividends. I think you will find that the dividends could add up to quite a significant figure at the end of the day - just a thought
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I take it you're grahamcr in the comp. In your public profile I see the counter name for ellies, could you post a screenshot showing your view.: http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/com_holdings_public.php?user_id=54
I do add the dividends to the trading account, so you can spend them as you would your regular deposits :)
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I take it you're grahamcr in the comp. In your public profile I see the counter name for ellies, could you post a screenshot showing your view.: http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/com_holdings_public.php?user_id=54
I do add the dividends to the trading account, so you can spend them as you would your regular deposits :)
Yup grahamcr
I can't seem to save a copy of the screen - maybe because that's because I am no techno wizard
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Press the print screen button. If you're on a laptop you might need to hold the fn key while doing that, then open paint or even ms word and press control V.
Unfortunately I made the security a little too tight, so even I can't login as you to take a look!
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Press the print screen button. If you're on a laptop you might need to hold the fn key while doing that, then open paint or even ms word and press control V.
Unfortunately I made the security a little too tight, so even I can't login as you to take a look!
Seems that if I click on my name the first time it drops the name but if I click on leaderboard and my name again the name appears. will look at getting you a screen shot once I have played around with your guidelines - Ta
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Thanks for letting me know. That sucks on so many levels :wall:
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Thanks Bundu, I'll correct it on the next email.
Orca your prediction about CML not going higher seems to have been off. Consequently, other than one share wonders and the penny share fakers, you're currently the accepted leader...
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Thanks Bundu, I'll correct it on the next email.
Orca your prediction about CML not going higher seems to have been off. Consequently, other than one share wonders and the penny share fakers, you're currently the accepted leader...
Don't talk too soon Patrick. CML does on occasion go too high above the sma but she is scared of heights and will retract back. The higher she goes, the longer the fall. This is one stock that respects the 20SMA and hopefully, as she normally does, she will bounce off it.
ATM she is pushing the BB up higher than the SMA can follow and this is not good.
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I got the same email, how about we move tax to it's own thread.
good idea :)
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I got the same email, how about we move tax to it's own thread.
good idea :)
Tax thread here: http://www.shareforum.co.za/shares/tax/
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Orca your prediction about CML not going higher seems to have been off. Consequently, other than one share wonders and the penny share fakers, you're currently the accepted leader...
Agreed :TU:
Surprising that there are so many "one share wonders" in the competition.
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Orca & Patrick, please stop playing footsie on the leader board.
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Orca & Patrick, please stop playing footsie on the leader board.
Don't feel left out, come join us ;)
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Orca & Patrick, please stop playing footsie on the leader board.
Don't feel left out, come join us ;)
A threesome? Sies Patrick. I only do onesomes. >:D
Moneypenny, with the Indi as your largest fund, you just cannot win but will be at a respectable level. Add to your other funds.
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Hmmm.
O goodie, we have new funds..
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You can also be a penny share faker and try to be number 1 for almost two months in a row :)
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I could SaiyanZ :) but I've got a lot of pensioners in my club so I'll have to go with 'respectable' gains, but with a twist I think.
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Just an Idea:
Could we get on MyHolding the initial investment amount shown and Profit (Loss) percentage.
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Don't talk too soon Patrick. CML does on occasion go too high above the sma but she is scared of heights and will retract back. The higher she goes, the longer the fall. This is one stock that respects the 20SMA and hopefully, as she normally does, she will bounce off it.
ATM she is pushing the BB up higher than the SMA can follow and this is not good.
Orca my screen just went blank, how am I doing? ;D
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Don't talk too soon Patrick. CML does on occasion go too high above the sma but she is scared of heights and will retract back. The higher she goes, the longer the fall. This is one stock that respects the 20SMA and hopefully, as she normally does, she will bounce off it.
ATM she is pushing the BB up higher than the SMA can follow and this is not good.
Orca my screen just went blank, how am I doing? ;D
Oh dear. .....I'm not forgetting that 3% I lost due to not being able to register for most of the day though. :LHST:
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:wtf: where did you get banned from? :wall: You are welcome in my Sandbox any time.
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:wtf: where did you get banned from? :wall: You are welcome in my Sandbox any time.
Thanks jaDEB. :) Got banned from MyBroadBand forum. They were all shouting at me all the time so I said something in anger I think. Anyway, on the MBB Group I am winning so they can all now smell my farts as I run ahead of them.
Sorry Patrick. I don't mean you were one of them but use a nose plug for now.
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Getting a bit worried about MoneyMaker. No more posts and she has not used her R100k or her divi to reinvest. Hope she is ok. Very prone to outbursts on forums. Highly stressed perhaps.
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interesting article
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-investment-insights/how-long-do-you-keep-your-shares
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http://www.sars.gov.za/AllDocs/OpsDocs/Guides/LAPD-IT-G11%20-%20Tax%20Guide%20for%20Share%20Owners.pdf
Not a very conclusive article, But the way myself and my tax guy reads it is that if you trade in reason and don,t get involved with speculative stuff, trading in a reasonable way, i.e. having a reason for selling as in not profit taking but the market turned . Would be capital gains and not income tax. I have traded on and off for a few years now and never had problems with profits taxed as income.
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that's my understanding as well tgg, but chances are that you will sooner or later get hassled by SARS if it happens frequently
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Will post in the TAX thread.
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You can also be a penny share faker and try to be number 1 for almost two months in a row :)
... :laugh:
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Patrick. I see you are briefly above me now. My MTA has dipped and has bounced off a double support level ie the tech level and the bottom BB that happens to be at the same level. So it's up for me from here.
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So it's up for me from here.
Love your confidence Orca. What happened to ZaiyanZ, can't find him/her? And I guess, well done P although I have trouble thinking of you and O apart like this. ;D
I also recognise a few ex-PSG online forum contenders, or maybe just new people with same names perhaps? i.e. Sallie, Frikkie, Shi (Shi1)?
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So it's up for me from here.
Love your confidence Orca. What happened to ZaiyanZ, can't find him/her? And I guess, well done P although I have trouble thinking of you and O apart like this. ;D
I also recognise a few ex-PSG online forum contenders, or maybe just new people with same names perhaps? i.e. Sallie, Frikkie, Shi (Shi1)?
SaiyanZ is back at 166 where that portfolio belongs :D
Thanks, though I have to admit, it's more luck than skill, I made only mildly educated guesses! That said, my grandmother is known to read tea leaves for people, so maybe there's a little sage in me too ;)
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Yeah. I made 2 good choices and 1 bad one. Temporarily bad anyway. Had the same stocks in the Sharenet competition and won the yearly. Perhaps they are burned out now.
Took me months of research to find them and Patrick beats me with luck and guesses. :(
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Orca you are rude and obnoxious, that is why I spend so little time here ;D
But then i attribute that statement to the fact that my portfolio is doing shit and yours not. :-*
But the game just shows how volatile things are, a once off buyer of tkg being on top, A share being punted to dip below R10 standing at almost R18. My sgl worth about R10 - R 14, and on R 7.
There are some shiners and some far off good highs. This to me is a traders market and not investors market, apart from cml. But as in my eternal crusifiction of CML , I see them below R55 by year end.
They are in effect a little local company trading way above where they should be, because of sentiment and profits earned from stimulated marker conditions.
Would be good that as this is an ongoing game , that starts fresh every year that patrick could keep the first years finals on record to compare with current prices thereafter.
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How can you say that about me tgg :frustrated:
My remarks to jaDEB are tongue in cheek and he knows that. We have been members of the other forum for many years together.
The competitive remarks between me and Patrick are just light hearted banter and not bragging.
I will now go and sit in jaDEB's sandbox for awhile. He did after all invite me. :'(
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was not meant to be other just thought elicit some serious reaction, so the thread could get some life.
But was not to be , how about we have a chat here and also get to know each other ;)
I usually have my share chat on the wd forum as I have got to sort of know a few guys there. Never anything serious though
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was not meant to be other just thought elicit some serious reaction, so the thread could get some life.
But was not to be , how about we have a chat here and also get to know each other ;)
I usually have my share chat on the wd forum as I have got to sort of know a few guys there. Never anything serious though
No prob tgg, as long as you keep posting. :TU: I only trolled you to keep it going. After all, it was me that said " come on guys. Post even if you diss people, brag or ask questions". And here goes:
Hey Patrick. Was smelling your farts for a few days so now you can smell mine again. :LHST:
You see. He's not even cross with me.
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Why am I dropping? I am sure Patrick has his algorithms or whatever you call those mathematical stuff wrong. :frustrated:
Please fix. Thanks.
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I'm trying to figure out what happened today myself. I see Shi got some FGL at 18c, while it's trading at the R1.40 mark. My ABSA account does report a daily minimum of 18c a share, no idea why that would have happened. Weird share graph in any case...
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I got this notification of this during the day via the Std Bank alert emails. Still can't believe it, but its true. You will also see on the Sharenet site, the low for the day.
Given your disclaimer on SaiyanZ's portfolio, I would suggest that you delete this trade. It is an unrealistic trade.
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I would suggest that you delete this trade. It is an unrealistic trade.
Why delete? :) If it has staying power so be it, if not, it will fade all by itself.
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Hey Patrick. My shares aren't updating.
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I would suggest that you delete this trade. It is an unrealistic trade.
Why delete? :) If it has staying power so be it, if not, it will fade all by itself.
Can's see anything on my BoE system to show that it fell dramatically in the last few months and show that it is trading around 136 cents. Have seen situations on the JSE where an investor has entered the wrong price on a sell order but most time the order is unwound by the JSE
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Hey Patrick. My shares aren't updating.
JSE link was offline for a little while. It seems back to normal judging by the way my rank is dropping :-[
I would suggest that you delete this trade. It is an unrealistic trade.
Why delete? :) If it has staying power so be it, if not, it will fade all by itself.
Can's see anything on my BoE system to show that it fell dramatically in the last few months and show that it is trading around 136 cents. Have seen situations on the JSE where an investor has entered the wrong price on a sell order but most time the order is unwound by the JSE
I saw it on ABSA the day it fell, but it may just have been a faulty trade as it bounced from the 130c range to 18c and back in virtually no time.. Realistically it probably wasn't possible for anyone to make that profit. Shi says he would accept a reversal, most likely the right thing to do in terms of the contest. Shi can I undo that trade?
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Yes please Patrick. Bottom line is that even though it is within the rules of the competition, it was an unrealistic trade. So, please undo the FGL (18c) trade.
PS: RAC ... Patrick please note that there is an offer on the table and it looks like it will be taken out by Grindrod.
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Just taking a rest. I've been sick you know. :(
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I always thought that if your stocks do not perform, you have to reprimand them to get them going. Works sometimes but I just found the golden bullet.
Add Omnia to your portfolio. She has enough fertilizer to share with her new found buddies in her stable to make them all grow.
Since adding OMN, they all going up. :LHST:
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Does that also work if you buy Pfizer?
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Does that also work if you buy Pfizer?
:TU: :))
Or SAB but they would get very volatile.
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Patrick - are the shares prices updating - some seem to be out of since with my live prices - AVI is one
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You're right. JSE is down again. I've activated the backups links, it'll catch up in a few minutes.
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In my view Dvr has just dissed himself off the competition by adding R100k worth of 2c stock. Sad as he was doing so well. Does he not read the posts here about these penny stocks?
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In my view Dvr has just dissed himself off the competition by adding R100k worth of 2c stock. Sad as he was doing so well. Does he not read the posts here about these penny stocks?
Penny shares have no place in an investor competition. Sadly I left them in to begin with. Next year they'll be gone, but we need to come up with a minimum qualification price. Maybe R1?
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The FSB will revoke his licence and most definitely Saiyan's for misappropriation of clients money.
Patrick, you should act as the FSB and do the same. Revert the trades back into cash with 2% interest. You'l get my vote.
I would say no penny stocks. Penny Stocks are stocks under R10, $10,€10 etc. as Prof Google told me.
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In my view R10 would be too high - there are too many stocks (208 presently) that would then be excluded.
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I believe if it is on the market then it should be available for competition. If some1 kick your @ss using a 2c share, then so be it, cause if it was real he still would have kicked your @ss.
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I believe if it is on the market then it should be available for competition. If some1 kick your @ss using a 2c share, then so be it, cause if it was real he still would have kicked your @ss.
only if there were enough sell shares on offer at the price that the person bought in and his holdings should then be valued at the buy price offer
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I believe if it is on the market then it should be available for competition. If some1 kick your @ss using a 2c share, then so be it, cause if it was real he still would have kicked your @ss.
Nobody of sane mind will buy R800k worth of 2c stocks with other peoples pension money. Do you think that you will be able to sell R1m in a 2c stock? Don't think so. Perhaps at 1c but it will take ages. Half of the old people would have died by the time they get any money.
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I believe if it is on the market then it should be available for competition. If some1 kick your @ss using a 2c share, then so be it, cause if it was real he still would have kicked your @ss.
only if there were enough sell shares on offer at the price that the person bought in and his holdings should then be valued at the buy price offer
I agree with bundu, but it's too hard to implement in an automated way. That's why I'd rather just get rid of the single cents shares.
Since I've got your attention, how about more thoughts on having the ability to sell next year. Options:
-Allow trading and have separate scoreboards for traders and non traders (penny shares won't be tradeable, oterwise we'll get the 1c to 2c heroes leading again. )?
-Allow a certain number of sales per month. 1/2/3 a month?
-Allow sales of a share, but don't allow buying back of that share for a period of time?
Any other thoughts?
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I would support throwing out penny stocks, we just need to decide the level (i.e. R1 or maybe 50c)
I would also support that limited trading is allowed, but we need to decide and apply a tax to the profits and that trades that seem suspicious can be reported and reversed (as an example a sudden price jump with very low volume)
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I presume you don't mean trading futures as such. Only occasional selling and buying of investment stock.
It won't be worth selling a stock after say 6% profit if you only going for maximum gains so I would say 1/month. That way you can get rid of a bad stock or a stock that gets bad news SENS.
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Since I've got your attention, how about more thoughts on having the ability to sell next year.
I am all for allowing a sell, subject to conditions that an investor would normally apply -
Investors will only sell a share when it's performance has not met with the initial expectations. Therefore the investor would at least have held the share for a sufficient period of time to allow the performance to be monitored. Once sold, an investor would then not buy back that share until such time as the investor is satified that it's performance has turned around, which would take quite some time - at least 3 months, usually 12 months, or more.
Therefore, we would need to apply these "real-life" conditions to the comp. As the comp is annually based, we need to consider that the "waiting" periods applied need to be adjusted accordingly, and therefor I propose the following -
Allow investors to make as many sells as they like, provided that
- The share being sold has been held for at least 3 months
- All shares are sold (none of that 50% now/50% later stuff)
- The same share cannot be repurchased for at least 2 months after being sold
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I agree with Bundu.
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Therefore, we would need to apply these "real-life" conditions to the comp. As the comp is annually based, we need to consider that the "waiting" periods applied need to be adjusted accordingly, and therefor I propose the following -
Allow investors to make as many sells as they like, provided that
- The share being sold has been held for at least 3 months
- All shares are sold (none of that 50% now/50% later stuff)
- The same share cannot be repurchased for at least 2 months after being sold
my view is that will be too prescriptive (and probably too complex to manage)....
what if I buy a share today and a very bad SENS comes out tomorrow that changes my view about the prospects? In real life, I would sell and not wait 3 months
why sell all my shares? I've often bought while averaging the price down and sold while averaging up...
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Taxing a sale will get too complex. What if I made a loss? As will averaging up and down. A penalty of sorts will have to be implemented as some guys will abuse the game if there are no limits pm.
Selling once during the year will make you a trader and as all the contestants will sell at some stage, we will all be on equal footing as traders.
We will have to minimize the trades and set a penalty to replace tax.
I would say -2% plus costs for gains and zero plus costs for losses as the losses are a punishment for picking cr@p stocks anyway.
The issue of guys buying or selling on spikes and small volume will have to be addressed.
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I believe if it is on the market then it should be available for competition. If some1 kick your @ss using a 2c share, then so be it, cause if it was real he still would have kicked your @ss.
only if there were enough sell shares on offer at the price that the person bought in and his holdings should then be valued at the buy price offer
Yes, I agree with that
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I have read through a number of the post around this competition as suggestions are still being made for next years competition and what the rules should be. The previous competition was canned due to the fact that you selected 5 counters for the forthcoming month and hoped like hell that you chose the right shares - the reality was that it was nothing more than a lottery. This competition was to test peoples ability to invest over a longer period, but becomes a lottery certainly from about September onwards as you try and invest your monthly allocation in a manner that it gives you good returns over a diminishing timeframe - and its all our hopes that we still create a pile of wealth to win the competition at the end of the year. So in essence funds invested from September onwards are going to go towards more riskier counters to try and optimize returns to keep you in the competition - and at the end of the day a penny stock may just win it for a competitor. I have not been in favour of the monthly allocation primarily because it encourages risk taking which is beyond the bounds of what the competitor would normally have invested in - so the focus shifts from investing to speculating and in essence that is what a trader would do. So I believe that those people who speculate more are more likely to win the competition. So we need to be aware that if the competition allows for speculation and encourages it then we should not place restrictions on buying and selling orders - another scenario that could play itself out and we need to be aware of that is - I could sit in cash the entire year and then in December I pick one penny stock share when its price goes down and then wait out the month for the share price to move by even 1 cent and you would more than likely win the competition with a handsome return - if you are not convinced look at the leaders on the board currently to get my drift
So I would advocate that the rules of the competition be that you get your annual funds up front in January and you have the rest of the year to decide how you wish to allocate those funds to various counters. Then over and above that you may have as many purchases as you wish during a month ( you may want to take up small parcels of a share over time rather than going in, in a single purchase) but when it comes to sales maybe a restriction of only 2 sales per month are permitted, this will allow those who have made a poor investment decision to unwind their loss making shares, and then look to an alternative investment. There should not be a restriction on someone who sells a particular share, from, at a later stage, buying the same share again - this is nothing more than locking in some profits. This competition is over a year so buying and selling the same counter within this period puts one at risk of violating your tax status with SARS so we should ignore this aspect in the competition due to its short run period - if we end up running a competition like this over a 3 - 5 year widow I don't think we will attract many competitors and also it may start cloning the investors real portfolio - and I don't think I want to put my portfolio onto such a public forum as there may well be a couple of SARS lurkers around. So maybe we need to try and keep the competition as simple to ensure enthusiasm and interest and not clog it up rules and regulations. Also the competitors should be permitted to buy any share they wish but warrants, CFD's and SSF's and any other derivatives are excluded
So Patrick maybe what needs to happen is that all suggestions over the last 11 pages are summarized and then we can debate the outline and rudimentary rules of the competition for next year
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gcr :TU: You are correct and I agree that more contestants will start gambling from now and go for broke as its "just a game".
To save what's left of the present challenge I would say that Patrick should revert all those 1 and 2c stocks back to cash and add on the introduction page that these will not be allowed due to liquidity problems. In red.
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You're right. JSE is down again. I've activated the backups links, it'll catch up in a few minutes.
Patrick - I am waiting to buy shares for the competition GFI - but your price is R54.20 and the share has been trading down around R 53.32 - I want to get in at this level not your feed price - anyway of getting into the competition at this price - don't really want to wait for the competition system to update
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You're right. JSE is down again. I've activated the backups links, it'll catch up in a few minutes.
Patrick - I am waiting to buy shares for the competition GFI - but your price is R54.20 and the share has been trading down around R 53.32 - I want to get in at this level not your feed price - anyway of getting into the competition at this price - don't really want to wait for the competition system to update
Link is up, update has also just run. Check the latest prices.
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You're right. JSE is down again. I've activated the backups links, it'll catch up in a few minutes.
Patrick - I am waiting to buy shares for the competition GFI - but your price is R54.20 and the share has been trading down around R 53.32 - I want to get in at this level not your feed price - anyway of getting into the competition at this price - don't really want to wait for the competition system to update
Link is up, update has also just run. Check the latest prices.
Bought - thanks
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Wait a minute. I put in buy orders over the weekend. I bought at the price that was displayed on the buy page. Was that price outdated?
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Wait a minute. I put in buy orders over the weekend. I bought at the price that was displayed on the buy page. Was that price outdated?
It would have been the Friday closing price.
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Patrick - a fair bit has been wriiten on the penny pincher stocks that have been bought in this competition and the value of investing in such stocks. Since this competition concludes at the end of the year and is finite for that year, and, since all purchases are based on the buyer price then at year end on Tuesday 31st December 2013 all share holdings should have the buying price applied to liquidating share holdings of stock. Thus in the case of a penny stock it may have been purchased at 1 cent and on 31/12/2013 you have buyers at 1 cent and sellers at 2 cents, but no trades then the buying price of 1 cent is applied to the holding of the penny stock. Should someone be that crazy to win the competition they would have to go into the real market and buy shares at 2 cents to force the traded price up to 2 cents. May just be a method to level the playing field - maybe also consider using the last traded price for a share when we are able to buy in next years competition and though you may place an order to buy it is held in abeyance until there is a trade in the counter - this may help to take the seldom traded shares out of the competition
Just some thought for debate
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Dammit, just cannot believe this, just replaced my screen.....and blink gone again. Cannot see anything. Patrick !!!! what is my position on the challenge. ?
I wish, I wish I had the b ??? lls to do this real life. 1day, watch me, 1day is the day..... :wall:
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Dammit, just cannot believe this, just replaced my screen.....and blink gone again. Cannot see anything. Patrick !!!! what is my position on the challenge. ?
I wish, I wish I had the b ??? lls to do this real life. 1day, watch me, 1day is the day..... :wall:
I don't want to talk about it ;)
You still need to catch up to Orca and Moneypenny though, what are you going to buy next month?
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Uhhh let me think......... yip SGL
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I haven't looked at the challenge in a week now. Too scared to and don't tell me my position please. ???
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OK Orca I understand, 12, I will not tell you, 12. I am currently 6th, 12, but you are doing well, 12.
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I don't want to talk about it ;)
You still need to catch up to Orca and Moneypenny though, what are you going to buy next month?
Done and dusted, well done jaDEB.
Patrick you don't want talk, Orca doesn't want to see and jaDEB never listens :D
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Patrick you don't want talk, Orca doesn't want to see and jaDEB never listens :D
So then this would be the 3 of us:
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:)
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Touchč :D
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jaDEB made me look. :frustrated: At No. 11 and jaDEB is at No. 5. I diss 1c gainers.
I did say that I have been feeling sick lately but will recover soon and start running up again. Geez. Can't find Patrick anywhere around here.
jaDEB, put your parachute on.
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Me and Moneypenny running neck to neck. Helloooo down there jaDEB. Patrick too far down to hear me but I see he has been struggling to break through the Indi resistance level for some days.
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:LHST:
10 Moneypenny R954,741.60 19.34%
11 jaDEB R952,317.46 19.04%
12 Tacet R952,192.53 19.02%
13 Orca R950,657.01 18.83%
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Now Moneypenny has moved above me temporarily so has jaDEB. Patrick has finally broken through the Indi resistance level and is above it. Hopefully he will have support now at the Indi level. He was there long enough to create good support. :TU:
I know these things. Any advice as to your position in the competition, don't hesitate to ask. 8)
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...temporarily? Oh man, now I have to punish you. ;D
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:D
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...temporarily? Oh man, now I have to punish you. ;D
Thanks. You jinxed my MTA. :wtf: 6m report out today and although satisfactory, she fell 6.5%. :wall:
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No, I will never do that. :D
Traders and investors are in the same boat, we might as well head in the same direction.
Market makers on the other hand :mad: I'll take them down without blinking.
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Patrick drawing everyone posting down to join him :))
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oh oh, you've just posted tgg :D
Patrick, get your act together, I hear it is all your fault we're all tanking. :'(
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At least mine are tanking the fastest. :TU: So I'm winning something.
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You missing patrick,s company :)
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rhetorical question tgg?
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Always good to be wanted :D
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Bought some Chickens this morning with my R100,000. Thanks Patrick.
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Patrick has become within chatting distance below me but where is jaDEB? Oh there he is above waving at me. Is he waving like in "goodbye"? No. Wait. He's waving a Kentucky drumstick around.
Moneypenny is almost out of sight above me past all those strangers but they all starting to have a hard time with the 1c and 2c pieces raining on their heads as those other strangers dump them for their new found 3c pieces.
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Need to see what Rainbow chickens will do after bad results. Thus competition is a good way of keeping track of a share.
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Do we buy shares at previous day closing price?
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Yep.
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http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/com_holdings_public.php?user_id=135
???
how does this happen
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if you have the right connections or the right person by their connections, you can sell as well :wtf:
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He was buying negative shares. I closed the loophole...
Not sure he expected the transaction history to get published though ;D
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Anybody else want to move in before me on leader board?
If you're looking for the opportune moment, this is it. :D
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Orca is still behind you...
I see 2nd, and 3rd has not bought in last 4 months. R400, 000 cash. lol. they are kicking our >:( ss and is not even trying.
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Hey jaDEB. Your chickens aint gonna work. Reason is this. They use light bulbs to keep the eggs warm and light bulbs on 24/7 to keep them awake and eating to get them fat quicker. They use hundreds of bulbs and electricity has got more expensive.
This is the very reason why chicken meat will become more expensive than red meat and it will reflect in the stock price. 8)
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31 millionares, and orca on the edge :)
What to buy, I can,t decide, but it won,t be chickens
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Hi Orca, Thanks for your advice on CML. Will it drop below R60?
I stopped posting on CML as I don't want to attract peeps here to invest in it anymore due to the fact that she might just drop to that level. 6500 is a good support level but the market is due for a correction as much as 15% soon so maybe the 6500 will be breached.
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Sorry about this but I need to reprimand my shares for doing badly.
MTA. :frustrated: How dare you embarrass me on this forum. Your results were flat and you tanked. SIES. Are all your batteries flat as well? I hope for your sake that the new foreign acquisition negotiation announced today is successful otherwise you toast my boy.
PNC. :frustrated: Why tank after 18% gain in HEPS? What is wrong with you? All those acquisitions and only 1% gain in full year from them. Now you will blame the ZAR I suppose.
Perhaps the 2 of you will blame all the 1c pieces raining on your heads dumped by all those 2c gainers.
CML. :frustrated: Wake up now. You have rested long enough. Look at CFR and TGK. You keep going up and then dropping back to your support. Get your A into G and show them.
Don't read the above as it is just my way to get my stocks to revive.
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:D
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Dear SGL,
Gold tanked, they strike, some know it all's predicted the end of gold. yet you put me 4th so far. Well done. I am frikkin sorry that I sold you in my real portfolio, would have made my target by now, but no, I is a scary cat....knob.
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You guys are losing it, seriously. Pfft, talking to shares. :D
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You guys are losing it, seriously. Pfft, talking to shares. :D
What's the prob Moneypenny? It normally works. Look at MTA today. Up over 2%.
I grew up that way. My Dad used to walk around our car swearing at it and kicking the tyres.
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...or it could be the cautionary announcement.
But I will try.
Maybe,
Once.
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My psychiatrist suggest that it will help me + increase my tablet in to 9 tablets a day. But I must say, the seagull is back in the kitchen every now and then, was away for about 3 months, and they took my shotgun away, so I am a bit worried currently
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Maybe we should alter the name of this thread to "The investor is challenged" what with people talking to physiatrists, bone throwers and all manner of sangoma's ;D
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Nice 1 gcr .... :D
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Patrick
Seeing as you are going for the RMB Midcap next, how about adding it to the comp leaderboard like you've done STX Indi and 40?
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Next year all ETFs will be on the leaderboard. I'll automate it. If I can find price history going back to April I'll add the midcap index, but so far I've only found 3 months worth of daily closes.
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Next year all ETFs will be on the leaderboard. I'll automate it. If I can find price history going back to April I'll add the midcap index, but so far I've only found 3 months worth of daily closes.
1 years history for you
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jaDEB, while you drown some sorrows with the fishies, you're currently the realistic leader of the challenge :TU:
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Thanks Patrick ... 8)
I wonder what happened to the "other" site's competition. I suppose forum is so busy with CFD's & ALSI trades they have forgotten about it. But yes, each to his own.
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All heil jaDEB! ;D
(Sorry jaDEB, I'm just too tired now to properly praise you, but I couldn't let it just slip by, well done!)
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Thanks, but we all know, all can change in a blink of an eye ...... :TU:
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Funny how some investors with decent portfolio.s could not resist the temptation of adding NUT as some stage. :LHST:
To me the biggest disgrace in this competition would be to own a penny stock. But then some will do anything for a win even if it means nothing.
See Nimz hit a luck with his CRD.
The one share that has amazed me is FGL
7 day change -2.5%
30 day change 17.2%
90 day change 4.7%
6 month change 101.3%
1 year change 1470.0%
and I can,t find out why
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FGL was 10c 19 Sept 2012, now 160c +/- 1500 % increase. Did you read yesterday about Naspers. If you bought R100k on its listing 19 years ago, it would be R26 mill today...
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I own 358903 FGL shares
Real portfolio or competition?
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:frustrated:..dammit thought you had FGL in real life and is smilling. Orca is fighting with the Taxman, hopefully he will win + CML turns and goes up. I would rather he kicks my ::) ss in the competition , i.e. CML goes to R95 by year end, cause then he makes real money as he owns a cr ;D p load of CML. I do not own SGL in real life :'(
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I own quite a few sgl in real trade so I hope you win the competition.
Am wondering what to do with the dividend out soon
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I could have bought a brand new Corsa cash with the money I lost in a week. I haven't checked the challenge in 2 weeks now. At this stage, I actually don't care if my CML drops to 2700 (price bought). That way I can get out without being penalized. :-[
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Cheer up Orca. We all pay tax, u are not alone. But do not let it get you down or demotivated. :wall:
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Like this?
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No sure, see what you mean. I get taxed on my salary + medical aid + pension + :frustrated: + :frustrated: + :frustrated:... agg ffs, there you are, :wall: happy now. Now I am also crying ..... :'(
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I'm going to try sticking to Warren Buffett's holding period, no tax that way :TU: (obviously aside from dividends witholding...)
In 1988 we made major purchases of Federal Home Loan Mortgage Pfd. (“Freddie Mac”) and Coca Cola. We expect to hold these securities for a long time. In fact, when we own portions of outstanding businesses with outstanding managements, our favorite holding period is forever. We are just the opposite of those who hurry to sell and book profits when companies perform well but who tenaciously hang on to businesses that disappoint.
From: http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/1988.html
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No sure, see what you mean. I get taxed on my salary + medical aid + pension + :frustrated: + :frustrated: + :frustrated:... agg ffs, there you are, :wall: happy now. Now I am also crying ..... :'(
That's only my "Trading" tax. :wall: You must see it with my salary added.
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If you keep it Orca, how long do you need to keep it before you do not pay tax?
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If you keep it Orca, how long do you need to keep it before you do not pay tax?
You will always pay tax jaDEB. If you sell before the 3 year holding term, all your gains are added to your income. If you sell after the 3 year term, 33.3% of your gains are added to your income.
The mystery is this. According to SARS website, if you were classed as a trader by selling and buying before the 3 year term then hold for 10 years then your stocks are still regarded as trading stock and will be taxed accordingly.
To change your stocks to long term Capital Assets, you need to "regard" your stocks as "sold" even if you don't sell them and pay the tax due at 100% of the gains added to your income. Your Base cost will then be at the market value at the end of that day. (I presume)
Problem now is that if you were a Trader and then changed your intention to be an investor, you would have sold the stocks prior to this anyway and paid the tax, then this date of new purchase should be the start of the 3year holding period in my view but unfortunately SARS is not clear on this.
Hope you get what I mean.
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I own quite a few sgl in real trade so I hope you win the competition.
Am wondering what to do with the dividend out soon
You must be quite happy watching jaDEB's ever increasing lead!
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Yes, I should believe in myself. I had a crap load of SGL, and I believed that it will go up. But NO, panicked and sold... :frustrated:
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Yes, I should believe in myself. I had a crap load of SGL, and I believed that it will go up. But NO, panicked and sold... :frustrated:
Did you actually have sgl in your real portfolio, I have and went through some major losses, also shitted myself, did a buy sell thing for a while and lost some money on trading fees, but am major up at the moment. Am a bit concerned about some wd that bought sgl when I was punting it then sold it at a low because cml seemed the thing. Many sheep fell into that hole.
Give stats of y to y on cml, sgl and lon
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Yes, at a stage my portfolio was 100% SGL. If I kept it, I would have ulcers, due to low of about R8, but also would have been in the money now +/- 15%. :wall:
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SGL ....
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Patrick, are you sure we're buying at previous day close, doesn't seem so for TKG. Closed 2523 Friday, can buy for 2662 now - what am I doing wrong here?
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Patrick, are you sure we're buying at previous day close, doesn't seem so for TKG. Closed 2523 Friday, can buy for 2662 now - what am I doing wrong here?
Nope, that's not the case, else everyone would just buy when the market has already gone up! Prices are live (delayed somewhere between 15 and 25 minutes. The only time you'd buy at the previous days close is if you buy after trading hours.
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Patrick - when buying shares on this challenge it is absolutely vital that participants watch the share price on another forum (I use my brokers live feed) and when the price drops they wait for your system to drop the price which seems to be 10 minutes later (but not always) Then the participants can climb in at the lower price for a similar period of time. Doesn't help to just use the price shown on your system unless it is to the participants advantage, but you do need another source of price monitoring O:-)
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http://www.sharechat.co.za/index.php/t/12955/
I use to have +/- 5 shares in my portfolio + warrants. I then started using Bread's Philosophy.
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Patrick, are you sure we're buying at previous day close, doesn't seem so for TKG. Closed 2523 Friday, can buy for 2662 now - what am I doing wrong here?
Nope, that's not the case, else everyone would just buy when the market has already gone up! Prices are live (delayed somewhere between 15 and 25 minutes. The only time you'd buy at the previous days close is if you buy after trading hours.
Had to try my luck. O:-)
jaDEB, what are you doing and what is Bread's Philosophy?
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If in doubt, buy Omnia. Only goes up always and the PE Ratio stays the same over time.
1 Year 66%
2 Year 77% ave py.
3 Year 72% ave py.
Divies not included.
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one share, Un-diversified, trading strategy.
Bread Started it, read some of the stuff as per link to other "Site".
I only have 1 Share at a time. Currently OCE.
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I'm comming back now. Just went to see what Porn-Star was up to down the bottom there. I can already see Patrick slightly above me.
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I'm comming back now. Just went to see what Porn-Star was up to down the bottom there. I can already see Patrick slightly above me.
Oops. Sorry for that Patrick. Never noticed you. Perhaps I flew too fast upwards and everything was a blur. I would have greeted you on my way up.
Now for MoneyPenny. Just 0.5% to go. jaDEB's too high for me at this stage. Not worried about the penny pinchers between us though.
Luckily they won't be around next year. :))
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You clever little Kazakhstanian, sneaking up on me when I'm distracted, and Patrick doing the same thing.
(I have recently discovered that Discovery should have been better left undiscovered. :()
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Well that's that for MoneyPenny. Who's next? tgg? I think he has posted here so he is my next target. :TU:
This is getting tiring but I will persevere. After tgg, it will be my good fiend Alf101. Oh no. He has penny stocks so he is dissed. Sorry my fiend. jaDEB is next but he is far too high for me. :frustrated:
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I see that I'm still winning.
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If someone could just tell those fish to keep swimming up I'll overtake MoneyPenny. And then get those gold mines striking to bring jaDEB back down from the heavens. Sorry tgg I know you won't be happy about that though as you have SGL in real life.
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Hey! Why is everybody gunning for me? Thought we were friends. :-*
Nice moves by the way O.
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If someone could just tell those fish to keep swimming up I'll overtake MoneyPenny. And then get those gold mines striking to bring jaDEB back down from the heavens. Sorry tgg I know you won't be happy about that though as you have SGL in real life.
I have also been buying gfi and am way down there in real life, but the gold mine strikes are over.
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Well that's that for MoneyPenny. Who's next? tgg? I think he has posted here so he is my next target. :TU:
This is getting tiring but I will persevere. After tgg, it will be my good fiend Alf101. Oh no. He has penny stocks so he is dissed. Sorry my fiend. jaDEB is next but he is far too high for me. :frustrated:
If my gfi and aeg recover it could be a tough call ;D
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I see that I'm still winning.
Not any more, but with a portfolio like that , i would not be a proud winner anyway >:D
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Was wondering about the buying strategy for the last 2 months.
Buy or just hold the cash.
Or in my situation, put more into the down shares and hope they recover with a better cost average
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tgg, I dig gold. But I sold out, as it is so volatile, irrelevant what happens in SA. It seems that some people speculate that gold is not what it use to be. I suppose the difference between me and u is that you can have gold as a % of your portfolio, i.e 30% or so. I cannot as I adopted breads 1 share portfolio method. Thus if I go for gold it would be 100%. But yes, the day may come. Keep me updated on your thoughts on gold. Also I do still believe that if gold recovers to 1400 / 1500 level SGL is the place u wanna be.
PS. seems my small % of fishies and chicken is also not doing to bad in the competition.
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jaDEB ! Well done, you did it. 8)
Other posters giving me a beating (Orca, tgg, O, Shi, P) all smoking as well. :TU:
Well done to non-posters also doing well, guess I just don't focus on you, so start posting. ;D
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Congrats jaDEB, that deserves a thumbs up
(http://www.picgifs.com/celebrities/c/cameron-diaz/celebrities-cameron-diaz-993982.jpg)
Can you hold it for the next 2 months?
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:LHST:, lol I never would have thought..... let see how long it lasts .. Patrick, do I win the car or the lady that is attached to the thumbs up.
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if she on your dating site patrick,
if so send a link
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if she on your dating site patrick,
if so send a link
Mz Diaz, sadly not, but if she played her cards right she'd have a chance with me ;D
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Amazing how a diversed portfolio with 2 or 3 bad counters bring a average down. Where one share can make you tops.
Apart from the penny guys I now know why all the other competitions limit a buy of a certain share to 25% of your portfolio.
A fund manger must be risk adverse, not an opportunist. My portfolio is also wrong in that I have to much SGL, but it was the share of the moment as jaydeb has shown, telkom as jaymed has shown was also a buy .
but neither is a good investment strategy.
So apart from the nice blond you cannot link me up with , it is still fun
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Amazing how a diversed portfolio with 2 or 3 bad counters bring a average down. Where one share can make you tops.
Apart from the penny guys I now know why all the other competitions limit a buy of a certain share to 25% of your portfolio.
A fund manger must be risk adverse, not an opportunist. My portfolio is also wrong in that I have to much SGL, but it was the share of the moment as jaydeb has shown, telkom as jaymed has shown was also a buy .
but neither is a good investment strategy.
So apart from the nice blond you cannot link me up with , it is still fun
jaydeb ? ??? Is he now beating me.... ?
"My portfolio is also wrong in that I have to much SGL" - If you bought at below R12, and the gold recovers, not only will you smile due to SGL price, but also their divvie policy. But yes, it is not a easy call, as SGL is very volatile.
Saying that, I think you are where I wanted to be and planned that, but I got scared and sold all my SGL. In hindsight I should have kept mine. Hope my fishies turn into gold on the 7th Nov.
But i wish u all the luck with your SGL's
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Moneypenny conquered, not to reign in Orca ;D
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Conquered? You wish. :D
Just gave you a fighting chance. >:D
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MoneyPenny and Patrick were discussing something together down there for some days. Wonder if it was strategies as she has now broken into a gallop.
Anyway, I am tired after my sprint and will rest here for a while.
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It would seem that gold shares are making a move , so I could recover my losses on GFI.
Then you will struggle to catch me orca :)
Patrick how about a separate leader board without the penny pincher's. Everytime TCS hit 2c or NUT is on 2c or climbs to 3c the whole game gets warped.
They are only there for irritation value anyway
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It would seem that gold shares are making a move , so I could recover my losses on GFI.
Then you will struggle to catch me orca :)
Patrick how about a separate leader board without the penny pincher's. Everytime TCS hit 2c or NUT is on 2c or climbs to 3c the whole game gets warped.
They are only there for irritation value anyway
I agree with that..... not that I'm near the top :-[ but, it's annoying looking at somebody's portfolio and then you realize their shares are not 'real'
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It would seem that gold shares are making a move , so I could recover my losses on GFI.
Then you will struggle to catch me orca :)
Patrick how about a separate leader board without the penny pincher's. Everytime TCS hit 2c or NUT is on 2c or climbs to 3c the whole game gets warped.
They are only there for irritation value anyway
I agree with that..... not that I'm near the top :-[ but, it's annoying looking at somebody's portfolio and then you realize their shares are not 'real'
Next year there'll be no penny shares any more... And selling, with a kind of a tax system built in to level the playing field for traders and investors. At least the theory is in my head, building it still needs to happen!
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The selling part would simulate more real time investing/trading.
I am getting hammered to the bottom by Ellie's :'( :'(
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The selling part would simulate more real time investing/trading.
I am getting hammered to the bottom by Ellie's :'( :'(
Ellies are taking strain because the government are taking too long to sanction the set top boxes for digital TV - they keep pushing out the conversion date
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Hope it's anytime soon as I also hold ELI in my real portfolio
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In my book, all those above the STXIND are winners and beating most Fund Managers. :TU:
Not talking about the 1c and 2c Penny stock holders. :frustrated:
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In my book, all those above the STXIND are winners and beating most Fund Managers. :TU:
Not talking about the 1c and 2c Penny stock holders. :frustrated:
Seems like you have been at the juice somewhat earlier than normal - would you have made this statement a week or two ago when your portfolio was below the index - don't think so.
If you want to be controversial then lay it on the line but be consistent >:D
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As long as you consistently make more than what you put in (after brokers & tax), then you're okay in my book. :)
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As long as you consistently make more than what you put in (after brokers & tax), then you're okay in my book. :)
Agree
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Patrick, either the leader board has frozen in time or I'm perfecting the skill of picking loser shares. Which is it?
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Patrick, either the leader board has frozen in time or I'm perfecting the skill of picking loser shares. Which is it?
c) the JSE has a hangover.
Switching to the backup links.
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Thank you.
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Ironically, Adcock & Discovery making me sick. :'(
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Yeh. I know how you feel. Sickening to invest in healthy stuff. You must reprimand them. Shout at them. They will then go up. Reminds me to reprimand mine now.
PNC. :frustrated: Are you in DOS mode again. Sleeping I think. You are embarrassing me in front of 300+ people here. What's wrong with you? Look at your pal CML that now has to carry you in my portfolio. Get off your butt and get going. Your bosses bought you more toys as in acquisitions and you not interested !!!
MTA. :frustrated: Are your batteries flat? Your boss just bought you a R2.2B battery buddy and you got revved up for 2 days then lost interest. I already said here that you are the next CML and now you embarrass me like this. Put some spark in there and get your wheels rolling mate.
CML. ^-^ Thank you for doing so well. Talk some sense into your room mates and get them going. Then you must rest as you must be tired now. I don't mind if you have a rest my friend.
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Yeh. I know how you feel. Sickening to invest in healthy stuff. You must reprimand them. Shout at them. They will then go up. Reminds me to reprimand mine now.
No, not going to polish their marbles. In real life I would have kicked them to the curb by now, learning patience here, or is it 'patients'.
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Yeh. I know how you feel. Sickening to invest in healthy stuff. You must reprimand them. Shout at them. They will then go up. Reminds me to reprimand mine now.
PNC. :frustrated: Are you in DOS mode again. Sleeping I think. You are embarrassing me in front of 300+ people here. What's wrong with you? Look at your pal CML that now has to carry you in my portfolio. Get off your butt and get going. Your bosses bought you more toys as in acquisitions and you not interested !!!
MTA. :frustrated: Are your batteries flat? Your boss just bought you a R2.2B battery buddy and you got revved up for 2 days then lost interest. I already said here that you are the next CML and now you embarrass me like this. Put some spark in there and get your wheels rolling mate.
CML. ^-^ Thank you for doing so well. Talk some sense into your room mates and get them going. Then you must rest as you must be tired now. I don't mind if you have a rest my friend.
:D :D :D
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I'm actually impressed at how many of the participants are beating inflation. and how few are seeing capital losses... (Not that beating inflation is unexpected).
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I'm actually impressed at how many of the participants are beating inflation. and how few are seeing capital losses... (Not that beating inflation is unexpected).
Actually the performance of the market lately has impressed me. No doubt a correction is due then look again. The minus figures will shoot up.
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Could you let me know when Redefine International stock will be converted to RI Plc and relect the correct price?
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Oh no. jaDEB dropped to No.3. What's wrong with you jaDEB? Feeling sick I suppose. Get more tablets.
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Could you let me know when Redefine International stock will be converted to RI Plc and relect the correct price?
Done and dusted. (suspended 0n 28/10; to be delisted 4/11)
The salient dates and times applicable to the transaction are set out below:
2013
Results of the general meeting and finalisation announcement published on Friday, 18 October
SENS on
Results of the general meeting and finalisation announcement published in the Monday, 21 October
press on
Last day to trade in RIN linked units on the JSE Friday, 25 October
RIN linked units suspended “ex” the unbundling Monday, 28 October
Proposed listing date of RI PLC on the JSE from the commencement of trade on Monday, 28 October
Trading in RI PLC shares with the JSE share code: RPL and ISIN: Monday, 28 October
IM00B8BV8G91 commences on
Record date to participate in the unbundling and the de-listing Friday, 1 November
Tax apportionment announcement pursuant to the unbundling Friday, 1 November
Accounts at CSDP or broker updated in respect of dematerialised RIN linked Monday, 4 November
unitholders
RI PLC share certificates posted to certificated RIN linked unitholders on or Monday, 4 November
about
De-listing of RIN linked units from the JSE at commencement of trade Monday, 4 November
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Just a warning to people who have buying/selling orders in the market. The JSE is upgrading its trading engine over the weekend 9th and 10th November and according to my brokers all orders outstanding past these dates will be terminated on 8th November and if you want to extend them for a further period you will have to replace these orders on Monday 11th November
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Yeah!!! MO MONEY today.....
What to buy.... What to buy.......??
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Orca, see you stocked up on some more cml, your top performer, I stocked up on some more gfi, my bottom performer.
Jadeb and patrick still to decide, sj the cheater with a loophole also quiet :)
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Yeah!!! MO MONEY today.....
What to buy.... What to buy.......??
Went for DSY - looking for a 5-8 % upswing in price by year end (well, competition end anyway).
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Jadeb and patrick still to decide
I was feeling hungry, so I went for some FBR.
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Jadeb and patrick still to decide
I was feeling hungry, so I went for some FBR.
Also felt hungry, bought more fishies . . .
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Patrick - do you have a problem with your prices - GFI has reflected a price of 46.01 for some time now?
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Patrick - do you have a problem with your prices - GFI has reflected a price of 46.01 for some time now?
Just the usual monday morning JSE link melt down. I've switched to reuters and bloomberg, should be up to date in the next 10 minutes.
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Ta
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:frustrated: Patrick, does that mean I am not going to win the Bar - one.
1
VW_Mk1
R5,822,099.10
429.28%
RIN
REDEFINE PROP INT LTD
607272
19
780
3914.31%
R4,736,721.60
81.36%
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Another early retiree!
Ok can someone try decode this sens:
http://www.sharenet.co.za/free/sens/disp_news.phtml?tdate=20131018114500&seq=21&scheme=default
Obviously I need to adjust the number of shares held, but I have no clue what the ratio is this time???
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Patrick,
It was a one for one spin off. Last price of RIN was 780 (i.e. price before suspension and subsequent delisting).
RPL started trading on JSE 28/10
VW's gain is thus "0" O:-) --unless the price has gone up in the meantime.
There will be a dividend 'in specie' of 57.92cpu without the deduction of witholding tax (as I see it). See http://www.sharenet.co.za/v3/sens_display.php?tdate=20131101120800&seq=24
I am not sure exactly when the div. will be paid, but I think on 29/11/13
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Ah ok, somehow he bought on the 1st of Nov for 13c a share. I assume there was some hold on that day so it should have been impossible to purchase correct? If that's the case I'll just roll back the transaction.
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Ah ok, somehow he bought on the 1st of Nov for 13c a share. I assume there was some hold on that day so it should have been impossible to purchase correct? If that's the case I'll just roll back the transaction.
He purchased them in April. I hold those in my real portfolio and would have been crying if the price went from 780 to 13c (or 19c on some sites). Their closing price on suspension date was 780 (the last price at which RIN traded ) - as confirmed in my brokers statement.
The challenge will be to get the div. right.
Once you have corrected this, JaDEB will creep up the board again, for which I want special thanks. :))
Mind you further upwards movement is pretty limited for him. ;)
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I'm still confused. This is what I see (http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/com_holdings_public.php?user_id=234):
Code Name No. of shares Ave. cost (excl fees) Current price % growth Value % of portfolio
RDF Redefine Properties Ltd 19433 1013 1010 -0.26% R196,273.30 3.37%
RIN REDEFINE PROP INT LTD 607272 19 780 3914.31% R4,736,721.60 81.34%
Purchase date Code Name No. of shares Purchase price Cost incl. fees
2013-04-25 11:19:01 RDF Redefine Properties Ltd 9433 1060 R100,389.76
2013-11-01 20:49:11 RIN REDEFINE PROP INT LTD 600000 13 R78,312.00
Now it could be that the backup links are confusing things today, but surely either the number of RIN shares, or the price per share was incorrect. Or RIN should have not been purchasable on the 1st of Nov...
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Ah I see, didn't look carefully and saw only RDF - different kettle of fish.
But yes, it is confusing as although RIN was suspended on 28/10/13, they were only delisted on 4/11/13.
He could not have purchased any RIN after 25/10/13 (a Friday), but certainly was able to purcahse RPL on
1/11/13 as trading in them commenced on Monday 28/10/13.
Basically the Purchase date entry should read:-
RPL REDEFINE INTERNATIONAL PLC
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Last day to trade in RIN linked units on the JSE Friday, 25 October
RIN linked units suspended “ex” the unbundling Monday, 28 October
Proposed listing date of RI PLC on the JSE from the commencement of trade on Monday, 28 October
Trading in RI PLC shares with the JSE share code: RPL and ISIN: Monday, 28 October
IM00B8BV8G91 commences on
Record date to participate in the unbundling and the de-listing Friday, 1 November
Tax apportionment announcement pursuant to the unbundling Friday, 1 November
Accounts at CSDP or broker updated in respect of dematerialised RIN linked Monday, 4 November
unitholders
RI PLC share certificates posted to certificated RIN linked unitholders on or Monday, 4 November
about
De-listing of RIN linked units from the JSE at commencement of trade Monday, 4 November
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Date Close High Low Volume
01/11/2013 13 13 13 0
31/10/2013 13 13 13 0
30/10/2013 13 13 13 0
29/10/2013 13 13 13 0
28/10/2013 13 13 13 0
25/10/2013 780 806 780 676,212
They could not be traded at time. The 13c must have been listed as a price for some other purpose. The share had been suspended.
So the whole transaction in the money game is null and void.
Kansvatters ek se
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Whats the chance GFI bring out a good report on the 20th, I am really doing some bad investing here :frustrated:
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Whats the chance GFI bring out a good report on the 20th, I am really doing some bad investing here :frustrated:
Keep with GFI and you can use it in 2 ways (presuming you have it in your private portfolio as I do - 4000) you can hold and wait for the price to improve - and I do believe that it will as most of their assets are offshore these days. Use it as part of your tax rebate on CGT when you sell in a particular tax year. Also if you hold shares in your private name/nominees get to the AGM and vote Nic Holland out of his position
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I have 4600 in my real portfolio and the only share at a slight loss. But I expect it to recover soon, Or else I suppose I would not have started buying them recently.
But i,m the impatient type and they are not doing their thing yet :)
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Does anybody know whats going on with FGL past few days? My challenge position has moved from around 260 to 192 due to 22% gain on FGL
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There must be something going to happen or rumours. The volumes have also shot through the roof.
I don,t see that their results warrant the price
Date Close High Low Volume
06/11/2013 250 250 236 822,546
05/11/2013 236 236 226 688,808
04/11/2013 225 230 223 336,785
01/11/2013 223 223 212 124,244
31/10/2013 212 219 212 107,948
30/10/2013 212 220 210 41,164
29/10/2013 210 215 210 53,841
28/10/2013 211 219 210 204,502
25/10/2013 214 215 208 33,627
24/10/2013 208 212 205 177,143
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Well I notched up the ladder 75 places tday...All in a days work. Mainly down to 12% gain today in fgl,1.48% on sol,1% on vod.
Fgl did over 1mil in volume. Keen to see what happens tomorrow. Wonder if this one could be another Capitec...
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Not with the financials they have.
Would appear to be bit of manipulation, most probably the next BFS
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I'm here to learn...competition or not ;)
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Well I notched up the ladder 75 places tday...All in a days work. Mainly down to 12% gain today in fgl,1.48% on sol,1% on vod.
Fgl did over 1mil in volume. Keen to see what happens tomorrow. Wonder if this one could be another Capitec...
That will perhaps teach you to pick stocks that are not volatile and cyclical.
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I'm here to learn...competition or not ;)
CML CORONATION FUND MNGRS LD 2737 7357 8380 13.9% R229,360.60 18.99%
FGL Finbond Group Ltd 44267 225 292 29.78% R129,259.64 10.7%
SOL Sasol Limited 639 46650 50598 8.46% R323,321.22 26.77%
STXIND Satrix INDI Portfolio 8273 4835 5202 7.59% R430,361.46 35.63%
VOD Vodacom Group Ltd 830 11850 11492 -3.02% R95,383.60 7.9%
Quite a good looking portfolio. Your only losing share is Vodacom, and their dividend will make up for that.
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Thanks Patrick, I took a chance with FGL knowing very well that the bulk of my portfolio is invested in STXIND25 and strong bluechips. I cant see Vodacom staying down too long as I think it should be trading at the same price if not better than MTN. I have not compared their fundamentals though, but Vodacom does have the most market share, and has much better network coverage and customer service from my experience.
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Fgl has really been a upset/upbeat share that few have punted but turned the game on its head.
Patrick how are going to handle the Abl right issue. Can the holders take up their rights from their last deposit in december or will they just forfeit them and retain what they have
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Fgl has really been a upset/upbeat share that few have punted but turned the game on its head.
Patrick how are going to handle the Abl right issue. Can the holders take up their rights from their last deposit in december or will they just forfeit them and retain what they have
or be able to sell their rights? :wtf:
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Patrick how are going to handle the Abl right issue. Can the holders take up their rights from their last deposit in december or will they just forfeit them and retain what they have
I'm hoping for some suggestions. What would be considered to be the fairest?
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both - allowed to sell the rights or buy the rights shares
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both - allowed to sell the rights or buy the rights shares
Giving the option would be a tough ask. I'd like to fix on one solution. Either assume everyone would sell their rights and just increase the total cash on hand, the easiest solution, if I can figure out what the sale price of the rights is. Option B is to assume everyone would exercise their rights and allocate the right amount of shares to people. This could be a little problematic as I have to do that before the next deposit, and let the cash go into negative until the deposit has been made.
What generally happens in a case like this, do most people exercise their rights or sell their rights? And if they sell, is there a standard price?
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I think the exercising of the rights would be the easier option because the main issue with selling the rights is determining the price. You can ask 5 people and they will give you 5 different answers.
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Patrick, I think most people would take up their rights, so let's go that route
The problem could however be, as in my case, that I will need more than R100k to take all my rights - In such cases, we can maybe let the person take up all their rights, letting the account go negative and then sell the number of shares required immediately to return the account balance to zero or if that is too complicated, maybe allow ABL holders to have a negative cash balance?
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Hey Patrick, JSE delays not playing ball again?
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Hey Patrick, JSE delays not playing ball again?
Well it is a Monday... Backup now on 8)
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Rare Holdings - RAR
Seems like they had a 100:1 share consolidation. Those holding the share in the challenge have suddenly become millionaires with massive growth (e.g. RAR RARE HOLDINGS LTD 500000 6 800 13233.33% R4,000,000.00 76.81%)
Found this in a SENS released in July -
Consolidation
The Board proposes that the company consolidate its authorised and issued share capital on a basis of 100:1 (subsequent to the Share Increase) with the aim of easing the administrative burden and costs incurred by the company in dealing with such a large number of shares.
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Rare Holdings - RAR
Seems like they had a 100:1 share consolidation. Those holding the share in the challenge have suddenly become millionaires with massive growth (e.g. RAR RARE HOLDINGS LTD 500000 6 800 13233.33% R4,000,000.00 76.81%)
Found this in a SENS released in July -
Consolidation
The Board proposes that the company consolidate its authorised and issued share capital on a basis of 100:1 (subsequent to the Share Increase) with the aim of easing the administrative burden and costs incurred by the company in dealing with such a large number of shares.
Was looking for a sens, thanks will update tonight.
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Rare Holdings - RAR
Seems like they had a 100:1 share consolidation. Those holding the share in the challenge have suddenly become millionaires with massive growth (e.g. RAR RARE HOLDINGS LTD 500000 6 800 13233.33% R4,000,000.00 76.81%)
Found this in a SENS released in July -
Consolidation
The Board proposes that the company consolidate its authorised and issued share capital on a basis of 100:1 (subsequent to the Share Increase) with the aim of easing the administrative burden and costs incurred by the company in dealing with such a large number of shares.
Was looking for a sens, thanks will update tonight.
Fixed, only one person held that share, another reason to remove penny shares from next years challenge!
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Just answer this Griffin. Would you invest your grandparents money into penny stocks? Realy? I doubt you would.
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However the majority of the traders in this competition would most probably agree with you.
Yes we do. :)
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I see the prices isnt updating
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I see the prices isnt updating
On the backup link now, give it 20 minutes.
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Patrick, have you decided how to handle the ABL shares after the rights issue?
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Patrick, have you decided how to handle the ABL shares after the rights issue?
Exercising the rights, even if it means holders end up in negative cash. I'll have to figure out how to script it soon, then I'll try apply it this afternoon/evening.
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Patrick, have you decided how to handle the ABL shares after the rights issue?
Exercising the rights, even if it means holders end up in negative cash. I'll have to figure out how to script it soon, then I'll try apply it this afternoon/evening.
that makes sense - thanks Boet!
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Patrick, have you decided how to handle the ABL shares after the rights issue?
Exercising the rights, even if it means holders end up in negative cash. I'll have to figure out how to script it soon, then I'll try apply it this afternoon/evening.
that makes sense - thanks Boet!
Ok, I've run the script, your holdings are updated.
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thanks Patrick :TU:
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I note that I bought 2496 GFI at 04.03 on 2013/12/03 while l was sleeping? :o
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I note that I bought 2496 GFI at 04.03 on 2013/12/03 while l was sleeping? :o
did you get them at good price? :))
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And check out when Bundu last edited his comment:
« Last Edit: Tomorrow at 06:13:55 PM by Bundu »
Clearly I've invented time travel and I didn't even know it!
What time did you buy the shares tgg?
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I was going to buy them today and then noted I already had. I do not recall the transaction, confused the shit out of me, Can,t think that I was that pissed this week either.
My internet history does confirm that i checked out the challenge at 10pm on the 2nd and 18.14 on the 3rd, but i did not do any transactions.
don,t suppose you can check the ip that did it. I could also be losing it I suppose
10:06 PM
- The Investor Challenge
www.shareforum.co.za
10:05 PM
- The Investor Challenge
www.investorchallenge.co.za
10:04 PM
- The Investor Challenge
www.shareforum.co.za
10:03 PM
ShareForum Challenge
www.shareforum.co.za
10:03 PM
- The Investor Challenge
www.shareforum.co.za
10:03 PM
- The Investor Challenge
www.shareforum.co.za
10:02 PM
- The Investor Challenge
www.shareforum.co.za
10:02 PM
- The Investor Challenge
www.investorchallenge.co.za
10:00 PM
- The Investor Chall
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I vote for you losing it :D
It lists your most recent IPs, but they might only have been recorded when you wrote a post. I've PM'd you the list.
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The time is incorrect. I bought NPN just after 11am and it shows that I bought at around 5pm. Or perhaps I'm also loosing it.
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The time is incorrect. I bought NPN just after 11am and it shows that I bought at around 5pm. Or perhaps I'm also loosing it.
Thanks, it was a timezone issue, it's fixed now.
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So i had to much to drink, or alzheimers is setting in :)
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Reminds me of when I was trading FX. Could only do so after work when I was having some cold ones that gave me courage to place orders. The next afternoon I would see stuff that I forgot to close and never remembered opening them. Had to leave them to run for months to get back into profit.
Needless to say, I lost R130K after a margin call. :LHST:
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Patrick - I see that your final prices for shares seems to be taken as per the start of the afternoon auction. Maybe you should reconsider using closing prices as end of day after the auction has been concluded. Would make my position just look a bit better :LHST:
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CVN - CONVERGENET HOLDINGS LIMITED
10:1 Share consolidation on 13th December
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CVN - CONVERGENET HOLDINGS LIMITED
10:1 Share consolidation on 13th December
Thanks, I'll process it soon.
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I note that TCS was suspended today, whats happens if they in ones portfolio, NIL value, a total loss or do they stay there at last traded price.
I would think a total loss and nil value as the shares can,t trade
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I note that TCS was suspended today, whats happens if they in ones portfolio, NIL value, a total loss or do they stay there at last traded price.
I would think a total loss and nil value as the shares can,t trade
Isn't the competition over in any case?
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Yep, contest is done with the winning blog post on the way. All prices are locked on Fridays values so the leaderboard is finalised. Congrats Griffin :TU:
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well done Griffin :TU:
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As the game past is now history, it may be fun to save the first games bought on record and update the prices to see where they end next year, ie challenge 1.
and bit of glance in the past, no need to just kill it
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As the game past is now history, it may be fun to save the first games bought on record and update the prices to see where they end next year, ie challenge 1.
and bit of glance in the past, no need to just kill it
Agreed, that will be interesting to see if you could do it patrick.
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We'll done Griff! :TU:
Now, do it again. >:D
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I thought we would start again on 2Jan14...... :-[
edit: sorry, just saw we're going on Monday :TU:
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these competitions have always had a issue in the past where someone buys shares that are not very liquid, e,g . If I had bought selco with all my money I would be 131% up today.
but that not be a true reflection as they hardly trade and there would be no hope of me selling or realising my profit.
Should you not have a cap on purchases related to the shares average volume
And it did not take to long to happen this year, games a farce
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these competitions have always had a issue in the past where someone buys shares that are not very liquid, e,g . If I had bought selco with all my money I would be 131% up today.
but that not be a true reflection as they hardly trade and there would be no hope of me selling or realising my profit.
Should you not have a cap on purchases related to the shares average volume
And it did not take to long to happen this year, games a farce
I have to unfortunately agree - I see new No 1 on the leader-board, bought a share, that would have taken him more than a week to get the quantity he owns - he could no sell the lot at a massive profit, even if the real market would only accept 1% of his holdings
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these competitions have always had a issue in the past where someone buys shares that are not very liquid, e,g . If I had bought selco with all my money I would be 131% up today.
but that not be a true reflection as they hardly trade and there would be no hope of me selling or realising my profit.
Should you not have a cap on purchases related to the shares average volume
And it did not take to long to happen this year, games a farce
I have to unfortunately agree - I see new No 1 on the leader-board, bought a share, that would have taken him more than a week to get the quantity he owns - he could no sell the lot at a massive profit, even if the real market would only accept 1% of his holdings
Also agree, see my other thread now, how do we find the infrequently traded shares to remove them?
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100ways has still got abit to go before he was bought and sold all available stocks, he should keep me from being last though :))
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You have some meaningful stats yet for this year after the first month.
Going to be a different one.
Don,t see your normal investment type shares performing. My portfolio was down near last in the first challenge.
Suppose shit happens.
Should anyone wonder tgg78703 and aae are the same person. One is at home with a few dops in his arse and the other at work with a hangover.
Neither make good investments
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...........
Should anyone wonder tgg78703 and aae are the same person. One is at home with a few dops in his arse and the other at work with a hangover.
Neither make good investments
:LHST:
this year will be very different - my private portfolio is doing extremely well so far
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You have some meaningful stats yet for this year after the first month.
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Should anyone wonder tgg78703 and aae are the same person. One is at home with a few dops in his arse and the other at work with a hangover.
Neither make good investments
Just this: http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/com_share_stats.php
And in this world I make fairly lousy choices too... Fortunately I don't buy the same in reality!
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Makes for interesting reading. some people went for last years winners, some for last years losers(me).
There does however appear to be some merit in the fact that a decent percentage of the persons playing the game are really into investing and have not been close to the wrong sectors.
Did note that cml seems to the big hit. Also surprised with all the interest in bti
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Avg cost goes weird if you only sell portion of a holding
ABL African Bank Inv Ltd 641 2718 1014 -62.69% R6,499.74 2.3%
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What should your remaining average cost be?
At the moment I do this (pseudocode), for a sale, the number of shares is negative:
price_per_share = 0;
Repeat for all transactions of the same stock symbol;
price_per_share = price_per_share + number_of_shares*stock_price/number_of_shares;
End repeat;
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Don't confuse me
I don't write computer code I buy and sell shares.Seems I should rather be into computer code and leave shares alone.
If you check my buy and sell on my account you will get to the answer sooner, it does not affect my end value. But my average cost has gone funny, it went up to R27.18 for abl and if someone has bought abl at that price this year. The pope is a protestant, or me a hells angel ;)
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How's it look now? If at first you don't succeed; call it version 1.0.
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ABL African Bank Inv Ltd 17641 1072 1014 -5.42% R178,879.74 63.27%
AEG Aveng Group Limited 4410 2485 2194 -11.72% R96,755.40 34.22%
SHP Shoprite Holdings Ltd 1930 14053 14292 1.7% R275,835.60 97.56%
???
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Why is current holdings showing all shares bought to date and not only current holdings. Those sold are still showing in current holdings but not included in the total
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post midnight coding :wall:
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post midnight coding :wall:
Far too brave Patrick.....
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Agree A, we have to set P free now. ;)
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Wasn't this site, I'm busy porting a blackberry app to android. Steep learning curve!
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Why is YRK - York timber not available to buy?
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Why is YRK - York timber not available to buy?
my guess would be too illiquid
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Any chance you could add a column to the 2013 results to show the current growth figures? Would be interesting to see how the "investments" we made last year are doing...