Author Topic: investor challenge  (Read 317122 times)

Orca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2280
  • Karma: +54/-3
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #150 on: August 05, 2013, 01:59:02 pm »
I believe if it is on the market then it should be available for competition. If some1 kick your @ss using a 2c share, then so be it, cause if it was real he still would have kicked your @ss.

Nobody of sane mind will buy R800k worth of 2c stocks with other peoples pension money. Do you think that you will be able to sell R1m in a 2c stock? Don't think so. Perhaps at 1c but it will take ages. Half of the old people would have died by the time they get any money.
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

Patrick

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2551
  • Karma: +47/-2
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #151 on: August 05, 2013, 03:14:06 pm »
I believe if it is on the market then it should be available for competition. If some1 kick your @ss using a 2c share, then so be it, cause if it was real he still would have kicked your @ss.

only if there were enough sell shares on offer at the price that the person bought in and his holdings should then be valued at the buy price offer

I agree with bundu, but it's too hard to implement in an automated way. That's why I'd rather just get rid of the single cents shares.

Since I've got your attention, how about more thoughts on having the ability to sell next year. Options:
-Allow trading and have separate scoreboards for traders and non traders (penny shares won't be tradeable, oterwise we'll get the 1c to 2c heroes leading again. )?
-Allow a certain number of sales per month. 1/2/3 a month?
-Allow sales of a share, but don't allow buying back of that share for a period of time?

Any other thoughts?

Bundu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 181
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #152 on: August 05, 2013, 03:43:33 pm »
I would support throwing out penny stocks, we just need to decide the level (i.e. R1 or maybe 50c)
I would also support that limited trading is allowed, but we need to decide and apply a tax to the profits and that trades that seem suspicious can be reported and reversed (as an example a sudden price jump with very low volume)
« Last Edit: Tomorrow at 06:13:55 PM by Bundu »

Orca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2280
  • Karma: +54/-3
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #153 on: August 05, 2013, 03:56:10 pm »
I presume you don't mean trading futures as such. Only occasional selling and buying of investment stock.
It won't be worth selling a stock after say 6% profit if you only going for maximum gains so I would say 1/month. That way you can get rid of a bad stock or a stock that gets bad news SENS.
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

Aragorn

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: +10/-0
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #154 on: August 05, 2013, 03:59:57 pm »
Quote
Since I've got your attention, how about more thoughts on having the ability to sell next year.

I am all for allowing a sell, subject to conditions that an investor would normally apply -
Investors will only sell a share when it's performance has not met with the initial expectations. Therefore the investor would at least have held the share for a sufficient period of time to allow the performance to be monitored. Once sold, an investor would then not buy back that share until such time as the investor is satified that it's performance has turned around, which would take quite some time - at least 3 months, usually 12 months, or more.

Therefore, we would need to apply these "real-life" conditions to the comp. As the comp is annually based, we need to consider that the "waiting" periods applied need to be adjusted accordingly, and therefor I propose the following -
Allow investors to make as many sells as they like, provided that
  • The share being sold has been held for at least 3 months
  • All shares are sold (none of that 50% now/50% later stuff)
  • The same share cannot be repurchased for at least 2 months after being sold
Not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall.

Orca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2280
  • Karma: +54/-3
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #155 on: August 05, 2013, 04:01:06 pm »
I agree with Bundu.
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

Bundu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 181
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #156 on: August 05, 2013, 04:08:10 pm »
Therefore, we would need to apply these "real-life" conditions to the comp. As the comp is annually based, we need to consider that the "waiting" periods applied need to be adjusted accordingly, and therefor I propose the following -
Allow investors to make as many sells as they like, provided that
  • The share being sold has been held for at least 3 months
  • All shares are sold (none of that 50% now/50% later stuff)
  • The same share cannot be repurchased for at least 2 months after being sold

my view is that will be too prescriptive (and probably too complex to manage)....
what if I buy a share today and a very bad SENS comes out tomorrow that changes my view about the prospects? In real life, I would sell and not wait 3 months
why sell all my shares? I've often bought while averaging the price down and sold while averaging up...

« Last Edit: Tomorrow at 06:13:55 PM by Bundu »

Orca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2280
  • Karma: +54/-3
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #157 on: August 05, 2013, 05:18:42 pm »
Taxing a sale will get too complex. What if I made a loss? As will averaging up and down. A penalty of sorts will have to be implemented as some guys will abuse the game if there are no limits pm.
Selling once during the year will make you a trader and as all the contestants will sell at some stage, we will all be on equal footing as traders.
We will have to minimize the trades and set a penalty to replace tax.
I would say -2% plus costs for gains and zero plus costs for losses as the losses are a punishment for picking cr@p stocks anyway.

The issue of guys buying or selling on spikes and small volume will have to be addressed.

I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

jaDEB

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4551
  • Karma: +31/-3
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #158 on: August 05, 2013, 06:41:12 pm »
I believe if it is on the market then it should be available for competition. If some1 kick your @ss using a 2c share, then so be it, cause if it was real he still would have kicked your @ss.

only if there were enough sell shares on offer at the price that the person bought in and his holdings should then be valued at the buy price offer

Yes, I agree with that
jaDEB

If it scares you, it's a sign you need to do it

gcr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
  • Karma: +28/-1
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #159 on: August 06, 2013, 09:57:27 am »
I have read through a number of the post around this competition as suggestions are still being made for next years competition and what the rules should be. The previous competition was canned due to the fact that you selected 5 counters for the forthcoming month and hoped like hell that you chose the right shares - the reality was that it was nothing more than a lottery. This competition was to test peoples ability to invest over a longer period, but becomes a lottery certainly from about September onwards as you try and invest your monthly allocation in a manner that it gives you good returns over a diminishing timeframe - and its all our hopes that we still create a pile of wealth to win the competition at the end of the year. So in essence funds invested from September onwards are going to go towards more riskier counters to try and optimize returns to keep you in the competition - and at the end of the day a penny stock may just win it for a competitor. I have not been in favour of the monthly allocation primarily because it encourages risk taking which is beyond the bounds of what the competitor would normally have invested in - so the focus shifts from investing to speculating and in essence that is what a trader would do. So I believe that those people who speculate more are more likely to win the competition. So we need to be aware that if the competition allows for speculation and encourages it then we should not place restrictions on buying and selling orders - another scenario that could play itself out and we need to be aware of that is - I could sit in cash the entire year and then in December I pick one penny stock share when its price goes down and then wait out the month for the share price to move by even 1 cent and you would more than likely win the competition with a handsome return - if you are not convinced look at the leaders on the board currently to get my drift
So I would advocate that the rules of the competition be that you get your annual funds up front in January and you have the rest of the year to decide how you wish to allocate those funds to various counters. Then over and above that you may have as many purchases as you wish during a month ( you may want to take up small parcels of a share over time rather than going in, in a single purchase) but when it comes to sales maybe a restriction of only 2 sales per month are permitted, this will allow those who have made a poor investment decision to unwind their loss making shares, and then look to an alternative investment. There should not be a restriction on someone who sells a particular share, from, at a later stage, buying the same share again - this is nothing more than locking in some profits. This competition is over a year so buying and selling the same counter within this period puts one at risk of violating your tax status with SARS so we should ignore this aspect in the competition due to its short run period - if we end up running a competition like this over a 3 - 5 year widow I don't think we will attract many competitors and also it may start cloning the investors real portfolio - and I don't think I want to put my portfolio onto such a public forum as there may well be a couple of SARS lurkers around. So maybe we need to try and keep the competition as simple to ensure enthusiasm and interest and not clog it up rules and regulations. Also the competitors should be permitted to buy any share they wish but warrants, CFD's and SSF's and any other derivatives are excluded
So Patrick maybe what needs to happen is that all suggestions over the last 11 pages are summarized and then we can debate the outline and rudimentary rules of the competition for next year       
Not everything that counts, can be counted, and, not everything that can be counted counts - Albert Einstein

Orca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2280
  • Karma: +54/-3
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #160 on: August 06, 2013, 10:35:37 am »
gcr :TU: You are correct and I agree that more contestants will start gambling from now and go for broke as its "just a game".
To save what's left of the present challenge I would say that Patrick should revert all those 1 and 2c stocks back to cash and add on the introduction page that these will not be allowed due to liquidity problems. In red.
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

gcr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
  • Karma: +28/-1
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #161 on: August 06, 2013, 11:06:28 am »
You're right. JSE is down again. I've activated the backups links, it'll catch up in a few minutes.
Patrick - I am waiting to buy shares for the competition GFI - but your price is R54.20 and the share has been trading down around R 53.32 - I want to get in at this level not your feed price - anyway of getting into the competition at this price - don't really want to wait for the competition system to update
Not everything that counts, can be counted, and, not everything that can be counted counts - Albert Einstein

Patrick

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2551
  • Karma: +47/-2
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #162 on: August 06, 2013, 11:16:51 am »
You're right. JSE is down again. I've activated the backups links, it'll catch up in a few minutes.
Patrick - I am waiting to buy shares for the competition GFI - but your price is R54.20 and the share has been trading down around R 53.32 - I want to get in at this level not your feed price - anyway of getting into the competition at this price - don't really want to wait for the competition system to update
Link is up, update has also just run. Check the latest prices.

gcr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
  • Karma: +28/-1
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #163 on: August 06, 2013, 11:23:13 am »
You're right. JSE is down again. I've activated the backups links, it'll catch up in a few minutes.
Patrick - I am waiting to buy shares for the competition GFI - but your price is R54.20 and the share has been trading down around R 53.32 - I want to get in at this level not your feed price - anyway of getting into the competition at this price - don't really want to wait for the competition system to update
Link is up, update has also just run. Check the latest prices.
Bought - thanks
Not everything that counts, can be counted, and, not everything that can be counted counts - Albert Einstein

Snakepit

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: investor challenge
« Reply #164 on: August 12, 2013, 12:01:13 pm »
Wait a minute. I put in buy orders over the weekend. I bought at the price that was displayed on the buy page. Was that price outdated?