Author Topic: Wait. ETF sales are ALWAYS taxed as CGT?  (Read 29069 times)

Moonraker

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Re: Wait. ETF sales are ALWAYS taxed as CGT?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2015, 03:31:09 pm »

BTW - I have now heard from two people (that should know) that you can use the R23K interest allowance on REIT income one said it's actually in one of his returns. And, of course, there still could be a healthy untaxed/no cgt dividend stream from your TFSA's

Nope, REITS (local ones) are taxed under code 4238 (code not shown after building return - oversight by SARS).
and..
Quote
In the past the income derived from PLSs and PUTs was therefore taxable as interest. But REITs declare dividends and these dividends, unlike dividends declared from non-REIT shares, are taxable at your client’s personal marginal tax rate. The income being declared as a dividend is therefore not tax friendlier than when it was declared as interest. To the contrary, as the annual interest exemption may not be applied to REIT income.

I assume the person(s) you are referring to must have had other taxable income in excess of the R23800.- exemption, making it appear that the REITS also qualified.

Orca

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ETF's and tax.
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2016, 07:02:27 pm »
Can't find the thread but as I never got clarity on selling ETF's before the 3 year holding term. From Moneyweb.

With collective investment schemes only capital gains tax (CGT) will be applied on the sale of units. This is even though they may have been bought monthly and held for less than three years.  :TU:
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gcr

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2016, 09:52:36 pm »
I find it interesting in that you can open a TFSA account and you can trade within that account like a trader without the profits being treated as income. I am sure that once treasury tumble onto this that they will impose restrictions, but in the interim it may be a good ploy to invest R 30,000 before Feb 29th and then a further R 30,000 in early March and then trade in one or more of the 39 permissible counters - to my mind ETF and DBX type counters lend themselves to trading with impunity from a tax perspective. I will be following this practice when I open a TFSA account shortly
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Orca

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 12:41:22 pm »
I have contacted Hugo van Zyl and he will explain it here personally. He is a Chartered Accountant and a Master Tax Practitioner plus he lectures at universities, seminars and even lectures SARS staff on tax matters. The mere mention of his name at a SARS office will give you a "get out of jail" card. He is also down to earth and approachable.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 12:43:32 pm by Orca »
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hugotaxforum

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2016, 03:36:01 pm »
TFSA intends to allow you to trade tax free! In the explanatory memorandum they did deal with this


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hugotaxforum

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2016, 03:57:58 pm »
Section 9C or the 3 year rule does not apply to an EFT as an EFT fails the qualifying share and the equity share definition. Where the EFT is registered as a collective investment scheme (CIS) (but not a fund of collective investment schemes) then 9C will apply. I am not aware of any EFT registered as CIS but I stand to be corrected. Most EFT's tracks an index and not directly a collection of shares therefore most fail the CIS test.


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« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 03:23:28 pm by hugotaxforum »

hugotaxforum

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2016, 03:59:29 pm »
Orca thank you for the compliment! Ut lately SARS makes us all sweat! They have this draconian TAA on their side


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hugotaxforum

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2016, 04:00:35 pm »
EFT should read ETF mr spell checker!!


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Orca

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2016, 05:22:37 pm »
Very interesting. So the ETF investors do not have physical ownership of the underlying companies and they only track their performance. This makes them taxed differently to a CIS or UT.
SATRIX can be bought as a CIS in the form of a UT and you have voting rights. Or it can be bought as an ETF and you have no voting rights.
Thanks Hugo.  :TU:
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gcr

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2016, 06:30:06 pm »
So now all those people who want to try their hands as traders can do so under the guise of investing through the TFS account - c0me end March I will try and ramp up my R 60,000 quite significantly and only ending up paying brokerage
Sweet
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Orca

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2016, 07:22:25 pm »
ETF shares are simply traded back and forth, through an exchange, between individual shareholders.
Therefore, there is no need to liquidate any of the ETF's holdings to pay sellers of ETF fund shares.
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gcr

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2016, 09:19:32 pm »
ETF shares are simply traded back and forth, through an exchange, between individual shareholders.
Therefore, there is no need to liquidate any of the ETF's holdings to pay sellers of ETF fund shares.
Not sure what your point is Orca - but with no restriction on buying or selling you can effectively trade in ETF, whereas you may not trade individual share counters. So the reality is that by trading/ churning ETF you are not deemed to be a trader in terms of the legislation, whereas you would if shares are traded under current circumstances and profits/losses are deemed income/expenditure
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Immobilier

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2016, 11:32:23 pm »
Best everyone checks with properly qualified tax people - i.e not random forum posters. My understanding is that tax rules are circumstantial and not product specific. The intention if the tax payer is paramount in determining the nature of the profit. Not the nature of the product itself. With all respect Marco - you seem all wise on all topics. Be careful with your advice/opinions across the board.

Moonraker

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2016, 09:37:43 am »
Recap on some points concerning TFSA's ...

From Moneyweb

In order to contextualise the answer it is important to understand that both
ETFs and unit trusts are portfolios established under registered collective
investment schemes regulated by the Financial Services Board. That means that
they are pooled vehicles whereby the assets held in the portfolio are acquired
using investors’ funds and are collectively managed by the asset manager.
As the shares and other securities are held in the collect investment scheme,
SARS will not treat a sale as trading income. This is different to direct share
investments, where proceeds may be treated as income if a share is held for less
than three years.
With collective investment schemes only capital gains tax (CGT) will be applied
on the sale of units. This is even though they may have been bought monthly and
held for less than three years.
On top of this, it is also important to note that all the income received by way
of distributions is taxed in the hands of the investor in the tax year in which
it is received. Income distributions comprise mainly actual dividends declared
by the underlying constituents held in the portfolio.
The dividends received by the portfolio are subject to dividends withholding tax
at a South African rate of 15% for taxpayers that are not exempt in terms of the
Income Tax Act. The dividends withholding tax will be deducted by the final
regulated intermediary and paid over to SARS.
Therefore all distributions will be received by the investor net of dividends
withholding tax. Distributions also include interest and scrip lending income
(if applicable), which will be taxed as normal income in the hands of the
investor.
That means that the only tax you will pay at the point of selling your securities is CGT.
This is calculated based on the current ETF price less the ‘base cost’.

From Treasury (older document)

Exchange traded funds
Exchange traded funds (ETFs) that are registered as collective
investment schemes (CIS) will be allowed in the accounts 8,
providing exposure to a diversified pool of securities at a relatively
low cost. Exchange traded notes and ETFs that are not registered as
CISs have lower regulatory requirements and some of these non-CIS
products, such as the Gold ETFs, are not sufficiently diversified.
Although products such as the Gold ETFs may act as a good hedge
when used as part of a broader portfolio, they may be inappropriate
as a single investment. ETF’s and exchange traded notes that are not
registered as CISs are not recommended for inclusion.

And for those who think they can willy nilly 'trade' their ETF's

However, once money is withdrawn from the account, any additional deposits will
be subject to the annual capital contribution limit of R30 000 (and the lifetime
capital contribution limit of R500 000), she says. Any contributions made, even
if subsequently withdrawn from the savings account, will therefore forever be
counted under the R500 000 lifetime limit.
For example: If Investor A deposits R30 000 into a tax-free savings account on
March 1 2015, and another R30 000 on March 1 2016, and withdraws R15 000 on
October 1 2016, the investor won’t be able to put the R15 000 back until March 1
2017 because they have already reached the R30 000 capital contribution limit
for that tax year (March 1 2016 to February 28 2017).


« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 10:09:28 am by Moonraker »

Orca

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Re: ETF's and tax.
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2016, 12:19:26 pm »
Best everyone checks with properly qualified tax people - i.e not random forum posters. My understanding is that tax rules are circumstantial and not product specific. The intention if the tax payer is paramount in determining the nature of the profit. Not the nature of the product itself. With all respect Marco - you seem all wise on all topics. Be careful with your advice/opinions across the board.
Before you insult people. Hugo is highly qualified and a 2 minute Google search shows;
Education

B.Acc, Accounting. Auditing 1984
University of Pretoria
Pretoria , Gauteng, South Africa
MST, Indirect Taxes 1993
University of Pretoria
Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
M.Com (Tax) is the South African Equivalent
Lectured cross border tax in the UK and USA for Expat South Africans
Guest lecturer TUKS or CPE Pretoria for Advance Trust Law Post Graduate Certification - students all lawyers and accountants

Professional Certifications

CA(SA)Active 1986
Master Tax Practitioner Active 2010
PR-8C200C1 SARS Tax PractitionerActive 2009
TEP (STEP.ORG)Active 2013
Associations and Societies

SAICA www.saica.co.za (Served on Tax Advisory Committee )
The SAIT - SA Institute of tax practitioners (Master Tax Practitioner Member 10863551 )

http://crossbordertax.blogspot.pt/2012/09/hugo-van-zyl-die-wegkaner-se-beste.html

https://www.taxconnections.com/profile/Hugo-Van-Zyl/12258993
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 12:24:27 pm by Orca »
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.