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General Category => Shares => Topic started by: Delusionsofgrandeur on July 18, 2013, 09:15:32 am

Title: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on July 18, 2013, 09:15:32 am
Hello All.

I hope I am posting this in the right place.

I have under R200 000 doing nothing in an FnB account for the past year.Its basically my savings,but I want to invest it.

I would like to invest it long-term.I am thinking of investing it aggressively.I am willing to take a risk if a fund/stock is likely to succeed and/or has a history of doing so.So I would say 50% money invested aggressively,and 50% of my money in a moderately aggressive fund/stock etc.

I have been looking at Unit trusts such as Coronation top 20,Coronation Industrial,Allen Gray Equity fund and Allen Gray Balance and was going to invest in a combination of 3 of those Trusts,mainly in the Allen Gray Equity fund.I am interested in investing in  equity.

More recently I have read that allot of your profits go to fund managers and I would like to avoid that.At the same time I know nothing about investments.

After reading some investment recommendations on forums on the web I would like to invest a good portion of my money with Satrix Indi. To cut out the middleman I was interested in buying shares directly on JSE from SAtrixindi.

I am not in country so I cannot go directly to a stock website like  http://trade.imara.co/imaraco/,since they require too much documentation to be acquired and handed in person.

Do you have any suggestions for a newbie like me?

I am South African but do not work in the country,so easy internet access to things is a plus.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on July 18, 2013, 10:36:48 am
I am with Imara and you don't need to hand the FICA docs in in person. You post them. It is a certified copy of your ID, proof of address and banking details. By law, all banks and brokers must comply with this.
I agree with you choice in the Indi while you learn the ropes.
If you are going to use Imara, you must let them know that you will be doing your own investing/trading without advice so they will get the correct forms to you.
Once you have transferred your money and it shows up in your trading page you good to start buying. I would also suggest you email the broker assigned to you to buy for you until you get to know how to do it yourself.

That website is their international one. Without the "since". Use www.imaraspreid.co.za rather.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on July 18, 2013, 03:45:32 pm
Do you have a south african bank account? It'll already be fica'd so you could simply add share trading to that.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on July 18, 2013, 05:19:26 pm
Do you have a south african bank account? It'll already be fica'd so you could simply add share trading to that.
He does say that he has R200K in FNB but I don't know how good their platform is.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on July 19, 2013, 04:09:34 am
Do you have a south african bank account? It'll already be fica'd so you could simply add share trading to that.
He does say that he has R200K in FNB but I don't know how good their platform is.

I have a South African bank account with internet banking.

I heard that it is more expensive to use a bank as a platform,not sure if its true,but I may have no other choice in the matter right now,since I may probably not be able to forward new Fica documents to Imara,Allen Gray,Satrix,or whomever.

This puts a spanner in the works.I was looking forward to buying into that CML stock that's all the rage. Maby I'm abit too eager.

This is the Brokerage fees.Is it a good deal?
https://www.fnb.co.za/stock-broking/index.html

Does anyone have any insight on this matter?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on July 19, 2013, 05:46:47 pm
Here is a brokerage calculator. FNB looks good.

http://www.sharenet.co.za/v3/trade/broker_calc.php
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yossarian on July 21, 2013, 12:13:37 pm
I had exactly the same (out of country) issue as you.  No Fica required to open an FNB share trading account (if you're already FNB).  Both offerings are competitive.  Their order system is a bit weird but it works.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on July 21, 2013, 03:25:48 pm
This gets a bit tricky as tax is involved. I have gone over to the Tax thread for further input.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on July 29, 2013, 02:11:12 pm
Thanks for your input.The only problem is that I am using a bank account in South Africa that is in my brothers name (Fn'B)

This is because my bank account was closed apparently due to insufficient funds.It has been closed for almost 2 years now.

So I think I would rather like to get my account Re-opened as a forum member suggested.Does anyone know exactly how to go about doing this?I am overseas right now and will be for the foreseeable future.

I will e-mail my Bank (Standard Bank),and ask them how to go about re-opening the account as a start.

Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on July 29, 2013, 03:17:34 pm
I hope you read about the tax implications your boet will have as a holder of an account that you trade for your pocket.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on July 29, 2013, 03:46:48 pm
Delusion - I think you are going to run into a few problems opening an account in SA - for a start you will need to go through FICA and FIAS and one of the requirements is a municple account or a SARS ITR12 schedule with you physical address on here in RSA. Secondly your bank may well enquire under what circumstances you left SA did you just up roots and move on, did you inform SARS and as I recall to be classified as a citizen you need to show that you have resided in the country (SA) for 180 days; did you apply for dual citizenship i.e. Britain and SA. Also when you left the country was it your intention to live in another country or are you on a visa which is renewable annually, if you elected to live in another country did you apply for citizenship - has it been granted. If you are a citizen of a foreign country as far as I know you can open an account in RSA but you would require certain minimum criteria to be met for the Bank to open the account. I think you really need to do two things - read up on the SARS website what you can/can't do and check with a bank here in SA whether you can indeed open an account with them while you are sitting in a foreign country and what documentation they would require. What you don't want is to not be able to move your funds around internationally and here the operative factor may well be where are the funds coming from SA or outside SA if from within SA then you may well find that these funds could be blocked and you would not be able to remit them overseas but you could use the funds for gifts, holidays and other travel related expenditure while in SA 
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on July 29, 2013, 04:13:47 pm
Orca-I have decided to rather re-open my old account and transfer the money to it,then take it from there.What a mission.

grc-I am on an annually renewable contract and I am still a citizen of RSA. I have to make it clear that I had an old bank account ,which was apparently closed due to insufficient funds.This is the account that I want to re-open.Will it have to be Fica'ed again?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on July 29, 2013, 04:21:48 pm
Orca-I have decided to rather re-open my old account and transfer the money to it,then take it from there.What a mission.

grc-I am on an annually renewable contract and I am still a citizen of RSA. I have to make it clear that I had an old bank account ,which was apparently closed due to insufficient funds.This is the account that I want to re-open.Will it have to be Fica'ed again?
Really depends on whether their records are up to scratch - normally you close and account and file all other documentation with the opening account forms, but, knowing how the Banks handled FICA in the first place merely convince them to find the docs or record that you were Fica'd for the original account.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on August 05, 2013, 01:28:48 pm
I tried to re-open my account,this was the second time I tried.They said that the account cannot be re-opened, even though its under 2 years old.I have to open a new account and I have to come into the bank.I did not disclose that I was out of the country.

So Im not too sure what to do at this point.Pretty frustrating,my money has been  depreciating over these 2 years.

Any suggestions at all?Im kinda stuck.

Also,any suggestions of what to do with money that I have outside of South Africa?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on August 05, 2013, 02:18:20 pm
I tried to re-open my account,this was the second time I tried.They said that the account cannot be re-opened, even though its under 2 years old.I have to open a new account and I have to come into the bank.I did not disclose that I was out of the country.

So Im not too sure what to do at this point.Pretty frustrating,my money has been  depreciating over these 2 years.

Any suggestions at all?Im kinda stuck.

Also,any suggestions of what to do with money that I have outside of South Africa?
Delusion - most od the big 4 banks in SA have London offices. You could try and open a South African bank account with the London office on the basis that you want remit funds out of your contract salary back home for family support or whatever. If this fails enquire whether you can open a broker account with them and use your external funds to purchase SA equities. The last option I can think of is that your could open a U/T account with one of the funds and then you could transfer the SA held capital to them. When you return to SA on holiday then you could tackle opening a bank account - i.e. you may come back here between contracts and on holiday   
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on August 05, 2013, 02:30:09 pm
If he can't do that then he can give POA to his brother to open an account on his behalf.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on August 05, 2013, 04:16:04 pm
If he can't do that then he can give POA to his brother to open an account on his behalf.
A POA can only be given by the holder of the account to another party. The other alternative is to draw up a general POA through a lawyer in favour of another but still there would have to be the interface with delusion
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on August 06, 2013, 02:55:01 pm
I just found out that I have the option of investing with Allan Gray(Unit Trusts) using my family members bank account.The Unit trusts will be in my name.

Im assuming that if Allen Gray will accept this kind of transfer Coronation and whatever other investment companies should have the same rules.

I will offcourse invest aggressively in their Unit trusts.Any suggestions?

I know Unit Trusts are not popular at all among this community and Forum members.

What do you all think of this option?

What percentages of the profits will be taxed from the Unit Trusts.The Equity UNit Trust graph looks fantastic,but I don't know how much I will receive after Tax.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on August 06, 2013, 05:03:28 pm
Equity Fund    10yr20.8    5yr11.4    3yr15.9    2yr14.8    1yr17.3
Benchmark    10yr20.2    5yr8.6    3yr18.1    2yr15.0    1yr21.0

80% of fund managers don't beat the market, and these guys are part of that 80%. Plus they'll give you the honour of paying extra fees to give you those lower returns  :D

But if I couldn't buy ETFs I'd still much rather give Allan Gray the money than putting it in the moneymarket or the bank or something like that.

Not sure about the taxes, but I have a large chunk with FOORD equity and the taxes appear to be minimal.

If you're thinking of going the UT route, spend some time on equinox. Here's why I went with foord rather than AG:
AG: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/funddetails.asp?fundid=15722
Foord: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/funddetails.asp?fundid=16294

This page is pretty useful too: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/fundperformances.asp
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on August 06, 2013, 05:30:30 pm
You only pay tax when you sell. If you keep your stocks for at least 3 years and then sell, you will have to add 33.3% of your gain less the R30k exclusion to your local income and then get taxed on the result.
As you have no local income you will probably not pay any tax.
If you sell before the 3 year term, you get no exclusion and 100% of your gain must be added to your local income. Simple as that.
I strongly recommend you invest in Satrix Indi for the best gains. Perhaps you can do it via satrix.co.za website instead of UT's via Allan Gray.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on August 06, 2013, 05:40:22 pm
Perhaps I should have added that even though UT's trade within the UT, you are not taxed on the activity. Only when you sell the UT or part thereof.
Am I correct Moon? You the tax guy here.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on August 06, 2013, 06:46:53 pm
Perhaps I should have added that even though UT's trade within the UT, you are not taxed on the activity. Only when you sell the UT or part thereof.
Am I correct Moon? You the tax guy here.
A tax event will occur when you sell U/T's, also a tax event will also occur each time dividends or interest is declared on the U/T's the dividend will be subjected to withholding tax and the interest component will form part of your overall accumulated interest income for the tax year subject to the allowable deduction
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Aragorn on August 07, 2013, 08:58:45 am
Reading all the feedback here, as good and well intended as it may be, I feel that it's much like building a house with shady foundations. My recommendation is that Delusionsofgrandeur puts some priority on sorting out his basic financial issues first. Two issues are at play here. 1. The requirement for a local bank account with which to fund his investments. 2. The not yet mentioned requirements of the SARB Exchange Controls as he is a South African Resident temporarily abroad, and in terms of the law, still subject to these controls (draconian as they may be).

The reason I mention item 2 is that when he transfers funds from offshore for investments either through a family members account or directly via a broker/fund manager, the recipient of the funds needs to make a declaration to the SARB (via the receiving bank in SA) as to the origin, purpose and nature of the funds (for Balance of Payments purposes). One can see this then unfolding into a problem, as the funds are non resident sourced, but are initially owned by a resident. The could then raise eyebrows and result in an admin nightmare trying to set the record straight with SARB post the event if the issue is identified. This could cost Delusionsofgrandeur some hard earned cash in additional banking charges as the receiving bank in SA would have to be his liaison party with SARB, and they don't do this for free, or cheaply either.

The issue of FICA as mentioned in the posts is correct when you are resident in SA. However, banks hold numerous accounts of people who are not resident in SA, and although still subject to FICA and KYC regulations, the requirements for this differ somewhat due to the nature of the of the residency status of the account holder. Therefore it is possible for an account to be opened with a SA bank subject to the applicable rules.

My advice -
Approach any one of the many banks in SA stating your current situation and that you wish to open an account to transfer surplus income earned whilst temporary abroad, asking them what documentary evidence they require to arrange for the opening. Any bank who says they want proof of residence in SA (like a rates account, etc) don't know what they are talking about so ignore them. and try someone else. Although this may take time to finalise, at least once it's done it's done. Then you should have no issues with SARB, Exchange Controls,  and transfering funds to your broker. Your foundation is in order and you can start to build on it. (You may have to provide this FICA/KYC info to a broker as well, dependant upon who you choose and their requirements.)

Just my 2 cents worth.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on August 07, 2013, 09:31:04 am
Reading all the feedback here, as good and well intended as it may be, I feel that it's much like building a house with shady foundations. My recommendation is that Delusionsofgrandeur puts some priority on sorting out his basic financial issues first. Two issues are at play here. 1. The requirement for a local bank account with which to fund his investments. 2. The not yet mentioned requirements of the SARB Exchange Controls as he is a South African Resident temporarily abroad, and in terms of the law, still subject to these controls (draconian as they may be).

The reason I mention item 2 is that when he transfers funds from offshore for investments either through a family members account or directly via a broker/fund manager, the recipient of the funds needs to make a declaration to the SARB (via the receiving bank in SA) as to the origin, purpose and nature of the funds (for Balance of Payments purposes). One can see this then unfolding into a problem, as the funds are non resident sourced, but are initially owned by a resident. The could then raise eyebrows and result in an admin nightmare trying to set the record straight with SARB post the event if the issue is identified. This could cost Delusionsofgrandeur some hard earned cash in additional banking charges as the receiving bank in SA would have to be his liaison party with SARB, and they don't do this for free, or cheaply either.

The issue of FICA as mentioned in the posts is correct when you are resident in SA. However, banks hold numerous accounts of people who are not resident in SA, and although still subject to FICA and KYC regulations, the requirements for this differ somewhat due to the nature of the of the residency status of the account holder. Therefore it is possible for an account to be opened with a SA bank subject to the applicable rules.

My advice -
Approach any one of the many banks in SA stating your current situation and that you wish to open an account to transfer surplus income earned whilst temporary abroad, asking them what documentary evidence they require to arrange for the opening. Any bank who says they want proof of residence in SA (like a rates account, etc) don't know what they are talking about so ignore them. and try someone else. Although this may take time to finalise, at least once it's done it's done. Then you should have no issues with SARB, Exchange Controls,  and transfering funds to your broker. Your foundation is in order and you can start to build on it. (You may have to provide this FICA/KYC info to a broker as well, dependant upon who you choose and their requirements.)

Just my 2 cents worth.
Agree - once you try and play fast and loose with the authorities you are looking for problems
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on August 07, 2013, 09:40:42 am
He can bypass the banks and send the money directly to a broker. The foreign exchange rate will be done on his side by his bank. His brother can then deposit the money into the brokerage account.
Most of us opened a brokerage account via email and post anyway.
I sent money to a broker in Ireland. Did it all by fax. Simply got tax clearance from SARS with the total amount to be sent for the tax year and handed it in at ABSA and voila...
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on August 07, 2013, 10:30:00 am
I also use a broker in the Isle of Man and have had no problems at all.

Made enquiries with them to buy the Satrixindi and seems pretty straight forward as if buying any other share and I'm now looking at the stxindi and Foord equity fund.

Patrick, I also looked at the Foord/AG scenario but would you invest with Foord before the stxindi?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on August 07, 2013, 11:36:14 am
Patrick, I also looked at the Foord/AG scenario but would you invest with Foord before the stxindi?

No, mostly due to the costs. But I'll leave the funds there for now for some diversification. I'm just not adding to them. All my new deposits are for the indi. My portfolio is now 70% Foord equity, and 30% STXIND.

Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on August 07, 2013, 03:29:36 pm
Equity Fund    10yr20.8    5yr11.4    3yr15.9    2yr14.8    1yr17.3
Benchmark    10yr20.2    5yr8.6    3yr18.1    2yr15.0    1yr21.0

80% of fund managers don't beat the market, and these guys are part of that 80%. Plus they'll give you the honour of paying extra fees to give you those lower returns  :D

But if I couldn't buy ETFs I'd still much rather give Allan Gray the money than putting it in the moneymarket or the bank or something like that.

Not sure about the taxes, but I have a large chunk with FOORD equity and the taxes appear to be minimal.

If you're thinking of going the UT route, spend some time on equinox. Here's why I went with foord rather than AG:
AG: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/funddetails.asp?fundid=15722
Foord: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/funddetails.asp?fundid=16294

This page is pretty useful too: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/fundperformances.asp

So what you are saying is that when all is said and done(Unit trust fees,UT taxes etc),the Eft Indi will yield greater returns(short-medium-long term) than a Unit trust from Allen Gray or any other reputable investment company?

If so,by what percentage does the Indi beat a Unit trust like the AG Equity Fund or Foord Equity Fund ?


Aragorn-So all I have to do now to make my money in my family members account legal and avoid any penalties and fee is to get the family member to declare the money to the South African Reserve Bank?If so,how do I go about starting this process for the family member in question to complete?

Also,I have a foreign bank account that I can use to  transfer money into an investment company's account.

Should I leave the South African account alone until I get the funds declared and use my foreign account to transfer money to an investment companies account?


Orca-I just got word from Imara SP Reid that I can invest with them as well!All I have to do is Fill in an Affidavit and get it signed by any commissioner of oaths.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on August 07, 2013, 04:04:06 pm
So what you are saying is that when all is said and done(Unit trust fees,UT taxes etc),the Eft Indi will yield greater returns(short-medium-long term) than a Unit trust from Allen Gray or any other reputable investment company?
Yes, but not just me, the stats are saying that too. Here's some reading:
http://www.bdlive.co.za/personalfinance/2013/01/20/market-beats-manager-again
http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardfinger/2013/04/15/five-reasons-your-mutual-fund-probably-underperforms-the-market/
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-money-matters/can-the-pros-still-beat-the-market
http://www.iol.co.za/business/personal-finance/financial-planning/investments/beating-the-market-is-unrealistic-1.1383612#.UgJNHG3LL5k

If so,by what percentage does the Indi beat a Unit trust like the AG Equity Fund or Foord Equity Fund ?
Well the indi did 35.5% in the last 12 months, so it beat AG by 18.2%! But the benchmark they try to beat isn't actually the indi but the all share index (plus income). There just isn't an all share ETF, the top40 (satrix 40) is often treated as the all share, and that did 19.5% in the last 12 months, so that beat Allan Gray by 2.2%.

Wondering how big a difference that is over time:
R100k @ 17.4%  for 10 years (AG) = R497,371.58 (http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/calc_compound.php?initial_deposit=100000&monthly_deposit=0&yield=17.4&years=10&inflation=)
R100k @ 19.5%  for 10 years (stx40) = R593,853.13 (http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/calc_compound.php?initial_deposit=100000&monthly_deposit=0&yield=19.5&years=10&inflation=)
R100k @ 35.5%  for 10 years (stxind) = R2,086,377.80 (http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/calc_compound.php?initial_deposit=100000&monthly_deposit=0&yield=35.5&years=10&inflation=)

Indi has just had a really good run (the market as a whole has actually been pretty good), who knows if it will continue, but if the top40 is beating the managers even with all this turmoil in mining you have to ask why anyone would use one.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on August 07, 2013, 05:59:20 pm
STXIND  :TU: Less volatile than most stocks on the JSE as well. Has not had a correction by itself in years if ever. I can kick my ass for using Fund Managers for years when I could have simply invested in the Indi. :wall:
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on August 07, 2013, 06:09:11 pm
Delusion, if you go with Imara stockbrokers for investing, they are great. Been with them since 2007.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Aragorn on August 08, 2013, 09:13:54 am

Aragorn-So all I have to do now to make my money in my family members account legal and avoid any penalties and fee is to get the family member to declare the money to the South African Reserve Bank?If so,how do I go about starting this process for the family member in question to complete?


Hi Delusion
The money that you had transfered to your family members account would already have been declared to the SARB by them (or their bankers). Generally, banks don't release the funds to the account until the declaration is made, and is usually done by phone call anyway. See also my PM sent.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on August 08, 2013, 11:31:05 am

Aragorn-So all I have to do now to make my money in my family members account legal and avoid any penalties and fee is to get the family member to declare the money to the South African Reserve Bank?If so,how do I go about starting this process for the family member in question to complete?


Hi Delusion
The money that you had transfered to your family members account would already have been declared to the SARB by them (or their bankers). Generally, banks don't release the funds to the account until the declaration is made, and is usually done by phone call anyway. See also my PM sent.

Hello.Apparently my family member did this already.The first time he had to go into the bank for them to show him how to do it.Afterwards he did it online.He said the money was received as a gift.How much tax was he charged?How much is donations tax and is there a way to avoid/re-claim it in the future?


Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Aragorn on August 12, 2013, 08:46:12 am

Hello.Apparently my family member did this already.The first time he had to go into the bank for them to show him how to do it.Afterwards he did it online.He said the money was received as a gift.How much tax was he charged?How much is donations tax and is there a way to avoid/re-claim it in the future?

Hi Delusion
I'm not a tax expert, but no tax would have been charged on the transfer to the account. I have no idea if anything needs to be declared to SARS at the year end, but I have never encountered any discussion or comment of this nature. In my opinion, no liability for tax will exist based on the 'gift' declaration.
But work on getting your own account sorted in the mean time.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 02, 2013, 10:37:57 am
My daughter wants to start investing in STXIND with monthly payments of R1500.00. Investing via the Satrix website is not ideal as they purchase the shares upon receiving the money and she wants to try buying in dips and not peaks or just before market moving news.
My brokers require a minimum of R20k to start and I assume most do.
How would you recommend she do it. She is with FNB.


Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: franz on September 02, 2013, 11:33:24 am
Orca, if you invest a small amount monthly by debit order then Satrix itself is your best bet. I am with BoE and don't think there is a minimum amount but the charges are way too high for such a small contribution.
I have a Satrix debit order running for my wife with a fixed monthly amount now for over 2 years and is doing very well so would not worry to much about buying high as you also buy low and the share is not that volatile.
Just my thoughts
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 02, 2013, 12:13:17 pm
Thanks Franz. I suppose that will be the best option. I see on the Satrix website that they have decreased the fees to 0.35%pa on the low scale and 0.65% for over R1M. Not bad at all.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on September 02, 2013, 01:17:51 pm
Thanks Franz. I suppose that will be the best option. I see on the Satrix website that they have decreased the fees to 0.35%pa on the low scale and 0.65% for over R1M. Not bad at all.
Orca - why would they have a higher fee for sums over 1 bar seems ridiculous :wall:
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 02, 2013, 01:42:35 pm
Thanks Franz. I suppose that will be the best option. I see on the Satrix website that they have decreased the fees to 0.35%pa on the low scale and 0.65% for over R1M. Not bad at all.
Orca - why would they have a higher fee for sums over 1 bar seems ridiculous :wall:
Sorry. It is the other way round.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on September 02, 2013, 02:25:12 pm
Here's Warren Ingram's view on which way is cheapest:
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-money-matters/cheapest-way-to-buy-etfs?sn=2009%20Detail
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 02, 2013, 03:42:56 pm
Thanks Patrick. I'll mull over that link tonight. :TU:
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on September 03, 2013, 10:18:11 am
I'm about to invest a large amount in the Indi this week but what is the downside, if any, of investing in this type of etf? Would you also implement a stop/loss?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on September 03, 2013, 10:19:12 am
The rand has dropped a heck of alot since I sent my money home.Needless to say I lost allot of money(relatively) since the economy tanked.Will it be better to wait till the rand strengthens before I invest in The Indi?Or does it not matter when I start investing.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 03, 2013, 02:51:16 pm
I can't think of any downside apart from a market crash. yozzi. I won't use a stop loss purely due to down spikes that lasts minutes before retracting back up. Called stop loss grabbers. These are more prevalent in volatile markets like now.

Delusion, your money is here already so you may as well start now. As soon as the strike season is over, we might see the ZAR back at around 9.8.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 03, 2013, 03:06:24 pm
I have been comparing STXIND, STXRAF and STX40 against each other and don't really see a diffs.
On the yearly chart, the first 6 months they performed equally and the next 3, the Indi made some higher gains to get into the lead. Then the last 3 months they did equally well.
So in 1 year the Indi only made gains higher than the other 2 over a period of 3 months.
Makes me wonder if the performance of the 3 will be equal going forward.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on September 03, 2013, 03:50:38 pm
I'm in this game for the long haul:
STX40 10 years    15.92% + divs = 18.68% annualised
STXIND 10 years 23.55% + divs = 26.03% annualised

5 year numbers are 11% and 22%. There's too little data on the RAFI to compare longer term.

http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-click-a-unit-trust/satrix-indi-portfolio?sn=2012+Detail
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-click-a-unit-trust/satrix-40-portfolio?sn=2012+Detail
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 03, 2013, 06:47:42 pm
No doubt that the Indi beats the other 2 but I am wondering why it only made better gains in those 3 months and the rest of the year they were equal. What was different during those 3 months to cause the Indi to go higher? I cannot remember any reasons.
I have not checked back to earlier years but I would think that the 3 follow at the same trend and for some reason the Indi gains more at some point that I cannot yet reason.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on September 04, 2013, 10:48:50 am
I can't think of any downside apart from a market crash. yozzi. I won't use a stop loss purely due to down spikes that lasts minutes before retracting back up. Called stop loss grabbers. These are more prevalent in volatile markets like now.

Thanks Orca points noted.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: flexbender on September 05, 2013, 02:43:37 pm
I've done my research on the the STX's but I want to hear some of the forum members' opinions regarding the choice between the different products they offer.
The FINI, INDI and RESI are quite easy to understand. - Sector specific.
The DIVI is also clear as you know what it's aim is.
BUT, between the regular TOP40, the SWIX and the RAFI I don't know where my preference lies.
Actually to be honest, if I had to pick one I'd go for the RAFI. Purely because I like the rebalancing of it. Passive 'management'. But no one else seems to like it!
The INDI has the best track record yes, and people love the reliance and stability of the DIVI, and others like the simplicity of the TOP40, and then the sector specific Funds if they think I can predict which is going to outperform in the future.
I don't know which way to go here! Can't make up my mind.
 :wtf:

Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 05, 2013, 03:31:08 pm
You will want to keep your stocks for at least 3 years for tax sake. So here is a 3y chart. You can either pick 60% or 120%. Whichever suits your pocket.
I just cannot see the other indexes beating the Indi. Even the method used to pick the Rafi stocks should make it the best performer but it is not.
If one can use the Rafi stock picking method on the Indi stocks, you will have superior stocks.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on September 06, 2013, 01:24:08 pm
So would it still be safe to just invest in just the Indi long term?Or is a mix of indexes recommended?I'll investing long term.

Also Orca,what do you mean by "You can either pick 60% or 120%"?

Im really also worried by the state of the economy long-term,causing investments to be worthless.

Is it perfectly safe invest in Rands at the moment?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 06, 2013, 07:09:30 pm
So would it still be safe to just invest in just the Indi long term?Or is a mix of indexes recommended?I'll investing long term.

Also Orca,what do you mean by "You can either pick 60% or 120%"?

Im really also worried by the state of the economy long-term,causing investments to be worthless.

Is it perfectly safe invest in Rands at the moment?

The Indi has been the best performing ETF for many years beating most if not all fund managers and UT's.
A correction is overdue at this point but "when" is the question. Nobody knows, but it must happen soon. It should be a healthy 8 to 15% correction that will put the charts back to normal as they are overbought at this stage.
Now this correction must not be confused with a Bear Market. It will still be in a Bull Market with a correction of short term within the Bull Market.
Your last question about the safety of investing in Rands.
Sadly it is not. The violent and destructive strikes here are seen on foreign media. If we get downgraded one more notch due to this, we will be worse off. The ZAR will decline further and due to foreign countries policies, investments here MUST be withdrawn to protect their investments from declining.

 
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on September 07, 2013, 09:01:50 am
Well I see Moody's downgraded Sanral which puts pressure on all SUI's so the country rating could be seriously affected. This is when the government and the citizens realize that Pravin is not a magician but just an ordinary alchemist :LHST:
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on September 13, 2013, 10:50:36 am
I see the Indi has gone through R50 now and was thinking about putting an order in to buy at R47 do you think it will pull back anytime soon?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 13, 2013, 01:17:45 pm
I personally would wait for the Fed meeting next Wed. Too risky now.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 18, 2013, 06:10:05 pm
The Indi sector has gone up too high according to my brokers. The sector PE is 24x and this is not sustainable. A correction has been overdue for some time and any advances is due to trading and not investing.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on September 19, 2013, 12:47:48 pm
So you still think there will be a 10-15%  correction?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 19, 2013, 01:56:46 pm
So you still think there will be a 10-15%  correction?
No doubt yozzi. The S&P500, Indi sector, TOPI etc are trading too high above the 200 ma and the happiness of today is not helping. One can argue that this may be a new normal but how do you argue that the Indi is trading at a PE of 24x and the ALSI at +17x whereas the ALSI's long term average is 14x
Should the ALSI correct back to a PE of 14x from 17x then the mind boggles as to the percentage drop. Perhaps a year bear market?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on September 19, 2013, 07:18:58 pm
Orca, that's scuppered my plans a bit as I was going to invest a fair bit in the Indi and as I'm not very familiar with the market like you guys are I need to look at something that's going to give me a decent return over the next 3-5 yrs and I don't think I'll go with the various fund managers so need to have a relook at this!
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on September 19, 2013, 07:33:33 pm
So you still think there will be a 10-15%  correction?

Plenty are saying the market is due a correction, but they've been saying that for a long time now. Note that the correction would likely be market wide if it did occur, not just on the indi. Of course a correction is possible, but then again so is an economic boom. The p/e is often misleading. If there's growth coming up then the future p/e could normalise without a correction.

Since you're talking fairly long term at 3 to 5 years, I would imagine the market or indi in this case, is very likely going to give you a better return than any other asset class. The only sure thing I can say, is that if you stay in cash you will be guaranteed to lose as inflation will eat away at it. Property might beat inflation, but on average just matches it.

Plot two points separated by 5 years pretty much anywhere in the JSE's history, and you'll most likely not only see growth, but growth exceeding the inflation rate. Even buying just before the 2008 crash would have you ahead of inflation now 5 years later. And don't forget about those dividends, they're not shown on the graphs, so you need to add them in your head!
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on September 20, 2013, 10:31:37 am
I totally agree with you Patrick and would not wait to invest. The market could stay happy for another 6 months and then correct to a value higher than today. Then you will kick your butt for staying in cash. Believe me as I did that quite a few times.
I vaguely recall a post of mine where I stated that had I just bought CML and stayed in, I would have made 1200% gains but scary pants me kept going into cash at every mention of a market correction. Ended up with 320% less tax at 40%.
We might even have a few smaller corrections keeping the markets flat for some time and as you say, the growth will sort out the high PE ratios. You also don't want to loose divies.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on September 20, 2013, 03:46:52 pm
The old adage sell in May and go away never tells you when to come back into the market. But I recall (on another forum) someone doing an exercise on our particular market and it seems to perform best between September and February. However we have experienced some significant drops in exchanges world wide in September and even October. So unless someone can produce data that shows how each month in the year has performed over the life cycle of the JSE and looking at high, mean and low per month I don't think we will be any the wiser. So maybe buy into a share over an extended period so that you can buy on dips
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on September 21, 2013, 03:16:27 pm
Thanks guys! Appreciate your advice and cheque's in the post!
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on October 04, 2013, 06:12:10 pm
Bought a good wack of Stx indi shares today at just over R51 each so onwards and upwards!
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Satrix INDI on October 04, 2013, 06:58:26 pm
Good choice  8)
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on October 06, 2013, 08:06:32 pm
This May we had a good month. Better than most. So that saying is now defunct and kaput. As to the Indi. All technicals show that a correction is looming for that sector. Then again, the markets are confusing. Happiness prevails with the US closing shop??? 
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on October 11, 2013, 12:08:41 pm
You will want to keep your stocks for at least 3 years for tax sake. So here is a 3y chart. You can either pick 60% or 120%. Whichever suits your pocket.
I just cannot see the other indexes beating the Indi. Even the method used to pick the Rafi stocks should make it the best performer but it is not.
If one can use the Rafi stock picking method on the Indi stocks, you will have superior stocks.

Interestingly, someone has tried, the ABSA eRafi Industrial 25:
Quote
The eRAFI™ Industrial 25 Index ETF is compiled using the innovative enhanced Research Affiliates Fundamental Index™ (eRAFI™) approach to portfolio construction pioneered by California-based Research Affiliates. The methodology weights shares based on fundamental valuation metrics - sales, cash flow, book price and dividends, as well as two additional filters (the quality of earnings screen and the financial distress risk screen) - rather than traditional market capitalisation.

Sounds good, but take a look at the chart. Seems the California-based Research Affiliates also got spanked by the market for trying to be clever  :LHST:
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on October 11, 2013, 01:38:46 pm
And I thought I was onto something original there. Nearly took a © on the method.  :wall:
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on October 30, 2013, 06:14:10 am
Here's a random question.Will buying property(example,a flat)  in South Africa be a better investment that the  Satrix Indi in the longer run(3 years or more)?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: franz on October 30, 2013, 10:39:09 am
A good article on industrial's on MoneyWeb
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Nios on October 30, 2013, 01:42:11 pm
Here's a random question.Will buying property(example,a flat)  in South Africa be a better investment that the  Satrix Indi in the longer run(3 years or more)?

I think you need to ask yourself what your strategy is. Are you investing for growth or income? If you invest in the property, are you bonding it or paying cash? If you're investing for income. You need to do the calculations. If you're purchasing the property cash your ROI is going to be crap. The more of your own funds you put into the transaction the worse your ROI will be. However, compare the income you'll receive from it if purchased cash to an INDI25 portfolio of the same purchase value and the yield you're going to receive should outweigh the income you'd receive on the ETF. I do my calculations, based on a 4% draw down so it can safely continue growing.

From a capital growth perspective, the INDI historically has outperformed capital growth of residential property. But is it giving you the same income yield of the property on a 4% annual drawn down?

Go and look at my post on paying off property before investing equities. I did some calculations of which you can see the results on historical 5 years INDI25 prices.

You also need to factor in tax, expenses, SARS refunds etc.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on October 31, 2013, 09:12:59 am
I would most likely be investing in property for income or a place to live when I need it.I do not own property,but I do work abroad.

I read your thread Gios.
Correct me if I am wrong,from what I read it appears that the INDI is the way to go for the highest return on financial/time/effort investment.

The Downside
Off course, this would mean I would have to rent and will not have an income should I return to S.A .I could always sell some of those stocks should I need them,cheers for the advice.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on October 31, 2013, 03:40:05 pm
To get tax relief, one has to hold the shares for at least 3 years. No matter how good the stock might look now and it's future prospects for further growth, a time will come when it stops performing or tanks. This mostly happens before the 3 years are up and you are forced to make adjustments. You will be extremely lucky if all your stocks keep going up for 3 years. Almost half of your gains will go to tax. That is a waste of your time and money.
For that very reason I would just go for the Indi and chuck it in the bottom drawer.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Nios on October 31, 2013, 08:55:39 pm
I would most likely be investing in property for income or a place to live when I need it.I do not own property,but I do work abroad.

I read your thread Gios.
Correct me if I am wrong,from what I read it appears that the INDI is the way to go for the highest return on financial/time/effort investment.

The Downside
Off course, this would mean I would have to rent and will not have an income should I return to S.A .I could always sell some of those stocks should I need them,cheers for the advice.

I'm not offering advice, you need to draw your own conclusions. I too lived overseas for a few year while renting my props out. I can tell you it was a freaking nightmare letting agents do it. You are so far away with no control. The minute I got back I started managing them myself and things improved. Still quite a pain though, especially when tenants vacate. Frankly had I invested in the Indi instead I would have much more capital today. There's so many variables with property though. Your case you're looking to purchase for yourself to live in one day, so different scenario. You never mentioned whether you were going to bond or not?

If you were going to buy cash, why not bond the property to a point where you'd break even every month once rented, let the tenant pay the bond while you abroad, claim the tax rebates on expenses and bond interest and then invest your cash lumpsum/monthly surplus in the indi. Like orca says, 3yrs holding period you'll only pay cgt. So if you going to be abroad for that period longer you'd probably be in a position to pay the bond off with your gains if it continues to grow as it has historically.
There's no guarantee that the indi will continue to grow at the pace it has over the last 5 years. But if it does, it will most definitely outpace residential property growth.

Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on November 04, 2013, 02:47:44 pm
To get tax relief, one has to hold the shares for at least 3 years. No matter how good the stock might look now and it's future prospects for further growth, a time will come when it stops performing or tanks. This mostly happens before the 3 years are up and you are forced to make adjustments. You will be extremely lucky if all your stocks keep going up for 3 years. Almost half of your gains will go to tax. That is a waste of your time and money.
For that very reason I would just go for the Indi and chuck it in the bottom drawer.

1-Am I correct in assuming this advice is for someone who has no knowledge at all in investing in stocks aka me?Or is this just general info?

2-By "adjustments" do you mean selling?

3-This may be a silly question, Is there a small chance  that the INDI will plateau in value in under 3 years?


Also,what is the price of the INDI per share right now?I still haven't figured out my interface as yet.


Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on November 04, 2013, 06:45:55 pm
To get tax relief, one has to hold the shares for at least 3 years. No matter how good the stock might look now and it's future prospects for further growth, a time will come when it stops performing or tanks. This mostly happens before the 3 years are up and you are forced to make adjustments. You will be extremely lucky if all your stocks keep going up for 3 years. Almost half of your gains will go to tax. That is a waste of your time and money.
For that very reason I would just go for the Indi and chuck it in the bottom drawer.

1-Am I correct in assuming this advice is for someone who has no knowledge at all in investing in stocks aka me?Or is this just general info?

2-By "adjustments" do you mean selling?

3-This may be a silly question, Is there a small chance  that the INDI will plateau in value in under 3 years?


Also,what is the price of the INDI per share right now?I still haven't figured out my interface as yet.

General info boet. I cannot see ALL my stocks surviving for 3 years without some major pullback. So I would rather go for the steady sustained gains with the Indi than go for the 130 percenters pa and have a major pullback and cannot sell due to the moerse gains made.
Point in question is my CML. Last bought at R24 and now at R82. Only held for 1.5 years and have R1.5M in it now. How much tax will I have to pay if I sell on a pullback to R60? At 40% tax, it is not worth it.
Holding on to STXIND that so far seems sustainable as it has been over many years albeit at 30% pa will be a better bet as you can hold it for the 3 year thing and pay very much less tax if you sell.

As much as I want to sell and buy the Indi, I cannot due to tax. I am stuck with CML.

I hate paying tax.


 
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on November 04, 2013, 10:17:37 pm
To get tax relief, one has to hold the shares for at least 3 years. No matter how good the stock might look now and it's future prospects for further growth, a time will come when it stops performing or tanks. This mostly happens before the 3 years are up and you are forced to make adjustments. You will be extremely lucky if all your stocks keep going up for 3 years. Almost half of your gains will go to tax. That is a waste of your time and money.
For that very reason I would just go for the Indi and chuck it in the bottom drawer.

1-Am I correct in assuming this advice is for someone who has no knowledge at all in investing in stocks aka me?Or is this just general info?

2-By "adjustments" do you mean selling?

3-This may be a silly question, Is there a small chance  that the INDI will plateau in value in under 3 years?


Also,what is the price of the INDI per share right now?I still haven't figured out my interface as yet.

General info boet. I cannot see ALL my stocks surviving for 3 years without some major pullback. So I would rather go for the steady sustained gains with the Indi than go for the 130 percenters pa and have a major pullback and cannot sell due to the moerse gains made.
Point in question is my CML. Last bought at R24 and now at R82. Only held for 1.5 years and have R1.5M in it now. How much tax will I have to pay if I sell on a pullback to R60? At 40% tax, it is not worth it.
Holding on to STXIND that so far seems sustainable as it has been over many years albeit at 30% pa will be a better bet as you can hold it for the 3 year thing and pay very much less tax if you sell.

As much as I want to sell and buy the Indi, I cannot due to tax. I am stuck with CML.

I hate paying tax.
Orca - your intention is to invest for the future, however market conditions change and as such SARS should be appreciative of this aspect. I believe that if you sold 50% of your holdings in CML and showed it as CGT in your tax return you would not be harshly treated (I am presuming that SARs has some intelligent people within the organization who could see what you are trying to achieve is a long term strategy of wealth creation) but you would need to deal this matter on a case by case basis. The difficulty is that SARS only let you interface with keyboard jockey's when you visit there offices what you need to do is get to the upper level of management where you may encounter some intelligent life form, its a ball ache but if it saves you money it is worth fighting for
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on November 05, 2013, 01:45:01 pm
I would most likely be investing in property for income or a place to live when I need it.I do not own property,but I do work abroad.

I read your thread Gios.
Correct me if I am wrong,from what I read it appears that the INDI is the way to go for the highest return on financial/time/effort investment.

The Downside
Off course, this would mean I would have to rent and will not have an income should I return to S.A .I could always sell some of those stocks should I need them,cheers for the advice.

I'm not offering advice, you need to draw your own conclusions. I too lived overseas for a few year while renting my props out. I can tell you it was a freaking nightmare letting agents do it. You are so far away with no control. The minute I got back I started managing them myself and things improved. Still quite a pain though, especially when tenants vacate. Frankly had I invested in the Indi instead I would have much more capital today. There's so many variables with property though. Your case you're looking to purchase for yourself to live in one day, so different scenario. You never mentioned whether you were going to bond or not?

If you were going to buy cash, why not bond the property to a point where you'd break even every month once rented, let the tenant pay the bond while you abroad, claim the tax rebates on expenses and bond interest and then invest your cash lumpsum/monthly surplus in the indi. Like orca says, 3yrs holding period you'll only pay cgt. So if you going to be abroad for that period longer you'd probably be in a position to pay the bond off with your gains if it continues to grow as it has historically.
There's no guarantee that the indi will continue to grow at the pace it has over the last 5 years. But if it does, it will most definitely outpace residential property growth.

I heard that apparently its a great time to buy a house now.Is that true?

Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on November 06, 2013, 10:04:31 am
Have been reading this thread relating to property v STXIND and I set a goal earlier this year to sell 3 props by year end and pleased to say I've now sold 4! So I'm a happy chappy at the mo as I would caution people in getting involved in property as opposed to the stock market.

If you're lucky and have a run of good tenants (presuming you are in the buy to let mkt) then no probs but when you get the tenants from hell and also one lot that did a runner owing plenty of rent then you think what the hell do I need all this crap for? Some props take years to sell and at the end of the day everybody wants a bargain and at least with stocks you sell and get your money within days and with not too much maintenance and stress involved! So what I'm saying is think twice about getting into the prop mkt and only if you want to be in it for a very long time as the mkt will take plenty of time to recover to the highs we saw years ago. Of course if you are buying to live in the prop then different story and you then cause your own stress!  :))

My goal now (as I've just hit the 60 yo mark) is to invest in something for 3-5 yrs that's fairly constant in growth and gives a decent annual return so hence me buying into the INDI recently and I'm also looking at the RAFI as I'd like to diversify a little. 
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on November 07, 2013, 02:38:11 pm
Thats great info to know.

Are you guys confident in the S.A market,specifically with stocks and the indexes,specifically the INDI(short term 3-5 year)?

I think I am convinced to buy into the INDI heavily(100% of my savings),but I fear the short term(3-5 years) depreciation of the rand and state of the country.Its clear to see,all around us.

But do you think it is still worth it?

OR Should I just keep some money here ,out of the country?

I am in the investment for the long term but if the country goes bad after 3 years Im taking the money out,if its still an option for me.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Nios on November 07, 2013, 03:50:23 pm
Let me guess...you're currently living in the UK   ::)
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Delusionsofgrandeur on November 07, 2013, 04:24:49 pm
Let me guess...you're currently living in the UK   ::)

South Korea.Also,is anyone waiting for the 2013 stock market crash dip to invest?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on January 13, 2014, 10:29:20 am
Decisions, decisions!

As I've said previously on here I bought heavily into the Indi late last year and now have to decide where to make my final large investment do I go with the Indi again or another Satrix product like the divi or rafi, play safe with something like the A Gray equity fund or a similar fund as I don't really want to have to keep watching the market in order to buy and sell shares.

What would you guys do?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: franz on January 13, 2014, 01:35:11 pm
Have you considered the DBX Tracker ETF"s? Foreign exposure and around 47% gain in 2013 rand terms. One of my best investments last 2 years.

Go to Deutsch Bank for info  "www.etf.db.com"
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on January 13, 2014, 06:35:48 pm
Thanks Franz, which one did you invest in? Did you do it yourself or use a broker?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: franz on January 14, 2014, 08:02:14 am
Hi Yozzi, i hold the dbxus, dbxeu and our satrix indi and add on dips. I buy and sell myself and have a Trading and LT portfolio with BoE. 
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on January 15, 2014, 09:58:06 am
Franz, I saw one analyst on Summit tv last night punting the DBX Europe and he said it had gained 54% in the last year? Are your investments in the DBX split 50-50 or do you have a larger holding in one of them?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: franz on January 15, 2014, 12:39:27 pm
Well, 54% incl. divis up to yesterday quite possible, year to year Dec 2013 for a lumpsum was 48.6% excl divi.
My US is larger than my EU as i expect good earnings and Apple to fly in 2014, just my opinion
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Nios on February 01, 2014, 08:15:37 am
Indi in quite a pullback. Do the experts here see it going any lower into the 40's?

Starting to look like a nice buying opportunity. Would be even better at the 45 mark.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on February 01, 2014, 05:40:14 pm
I'm no expert but I would wait a while. The correction was expected and ongoing. Perhaps more down days than up days to follow.
From the chart, you can see that the deviation from the 200 day moving average got too large and now she is heading back down to have a gander at it. I would wait for a price at 5200 or at support at 5000.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on February 05, 2014, 12:15:22 pm
I've also been watching this pullback on the Indi would you advise putting in an order to buy at around R47 or do you think it won't get that low? Or could it even go lower?

 
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Orca on February 05, 2014, 01:38:49 pm
The industrials had a harder knock than the ALSI, but could go a bit lower. Nobody can predict a bottom but from the chart, it could be now or 48. Shouldn't go lower than that 200 ma line though.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: yozzi on February 19, 2014, 12:26:21 pm
I've been waiting on the INDI pulling back a bit to buy but it's gone to R54 today and I saw on an email today from Just One Lap that they have buy signals triggering on the INDI so is the opinion on here that it's going much higher or do you think a pullback is still possible?
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Patrick on April 23, 2014, 07:41:22 am
I have some money to put into the market again in the near future. For the last year all I've done was put money into the INDI, and last year it was fantastic, but it's performance this year has been sub-par. On the leaderboard it's only in 124th place. For once I'm questioning whether I shouldn't possibly something else.

So, if you wanted to buy a different ETF at the moment, what would it be? The FINI is top of the leaderboard, but a bunch of others are also doing well. I'm considering the midcap or the divi.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: Nios on April 23, 2014, 08:39:40 am
Hi Patrick... The fini is performing well but seems to be alot more volatile. I would go fini if i was going to trade it short term. Long term I would stick with the indi. My take is you buying on the cheap at the moment until it starts ticking up again.
Title: Re: SAtrixindi
Post by: gcr on April 23, 2014, 03:36:46 pm
I agree with Nios - buy the dips. The only time we will se an improvement in the economy is when industry starts ramping up product and then the indi would start performing like last year. So buy and sit tight for a good few months