Author Topic: SAtrixindi  (Read 42689 times)

Orca

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 02:30:09 pm »
If he can't do that then he can give POA to his brother to open an account on his behalf.
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gcr

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2013, 04:16:04 pm »
If he can't do that then he can give POA to his brother to open an account on his behalf.
A POA can only be given by the holder of the account to another party. The other alternative is to draw up a general POA through a lawyer in favour of another but still there would have to be the interface with delusion
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Delusionsofgrandeur

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 02:55:01 pm »
I just found out that I have the option of investing with Allan Gray(Unit Trusts) using my family members bank account.The Unit trusts will be in my name.

Im assuming that if Allen Gray will accept this kind of transfer Coronation and whatever other investment companies should have the same rules.

I will offcourse invest aggressively in their Unit trusts.Any suggestions?

I know Unit Trusts are not popular at all among this community and Forum members.

What do you all think of this option?

What percentages of the profits will be taxed from the Unit Trusts.The Equity UNit Trust graph looks fantastic,but I don't know how much I will receive after Tax.

Patrick

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 05:03:28 pm »
Equity Fund    10yr20.8    5yr11.4    3yr15.9    2yr14.8    1yr17.3
Benchmark    10yr20.2    5yr8.6    3yr18.1    2yr15.0    1yr21.0

80% of fund managers don't beat the market, and these guys are part of that 80%. Plus they'll give you the honour of paying extra fees to give you those lower returns  :D

But if I couldn't buy ETFs I'd still much rather give Allan Gray the money than putting it in the moneymarket or the bank or something like that.

Not sure about the taxes, but I have a large chunk with FOORD equity and the taxes appear to be minimal.

If you're thinking of going the UT route, spend some time on equinox. Here's why I went with foord rather than AG:
AG: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/funddetails.asp?fundid=15722
Foord: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/funddetails.asp?fundid=16294

This page is pretty useful too: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/fundperformances.asp

Orca

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 05:30:30 pm »
You only pay tax when you sell. If you keep your stocks for at least 3 years and then sell, you will have to add 33.3% of your gain less the R30k exclusion to your local income and then get taxed on the result.
As you have no local income you will probably not pay any tax.
If you sell before the 3 year term, you get no exclusion and 100% of your gain must be added to your local income. Simple as that.
I strongly recommend you invest in Satrix Indi for the best gains. Perhaps you can do it via satrix.co.za website instead of UT's via Allan Gray.
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

Orca

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 05:40:22 pm »
Perhaps I should have added that even though UT's trade within the UT, you are not taxed on the activity. Only when you sell the UT or part thereof.
Am I correct Moon? You the tax guy here.
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gcr

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 06:46:53 pm »
Perhaps I should have added that even though UT's trade within the UT, you are not taxed on the activity. Only when you sell the UT or part thereof.
Am I correct Moon? You the tax guy here.
A tax event will occur when you sell U/T's, also a tax event will also occur each time dividends or interest is declared on the U/T's the dividend will be subjected to withholding tax and the interest component will form part of your overall accumulated interest income for the tax year subject to the allowable deduction
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Aragorn

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2013, 08:58:45 am »
Reading all the feedback here, as good and well intended as it may be, I feel that it's much like building a house with shady foundations. My recommendation is that Delusionsofgrandeur puts some priority on sorting out his basic financial issues first. Two issues are at play here. 1. The requirement for a local bank account with which to fund his investments. 2. The not yet mentioned requirements of the SARB Exchange Controls as he is a South African Resident temporarily abroad, and in terms of the law, still subject to these controls (draconian as they may be).

The reason I mention item 2 is that when he transfers funds from offshore for investments either through a family members account or directly via a broker/fund manager, the recipient of the funds needs to make a declaration to the SARB (via the receiving bank in SA) as to the origin, purpose and nature of the funds (for Balance of Payments purposes). One can see this then unfolding into a problem, as the funds are non resident sourced, but are initially owned by a resident. The could then raise eyebrows and result in an admin nightmare trying to set the record straight with SARB post the event if the issue is identified. This could cost Delusionsofgrandeur some hard earned cash in additional banking charges as the receiving bank in SA would have to be his liaison party with SARB, and they don't do this for free, or cheaply either.

The issue of FICA as mentioned in the posts is correct when you are resident in SA. However, banks hold numerous accounts of people who are not resident in SA, and although still subject to FICA and KYC regulations, the requirements for this differ somewhat due to the nature of the of the residency status of the account holder. Therefore it is possible for an account to be opened with a SA bank subject to the applicable rules.

My advice -
Approach any one of the many banks in SA stating your current situation and that you wish to open an account to transfer surplus income earned whilst temporary abroad, asking them what documentary evidence they require to arrange for the opening. Any bank who says they want proof of residence in SA (like a rates account, etc) don't know what they are talking about so ignore them. and try someone else. Although this may take time to finalise, at least once it's done it's done. Then you should have no issues with SARB, Exchange Controls,  and transfering funds to your broker. Your foundation is in order and you can start to build on it. (You may have to provide this FICA/KYC info to a broker as well, dependant upon who you choose and their requirements.)

Just my 2 cents worth.
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gcr

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2013, 09:31:04 am »
Reading all the feedback here, as good and well intended as it may be, I feel that it's much like building a house with shady foundations. My recommendation is that Delusionsofgrandeur puts some priority on sorting out his basic financial issues first. Two issues are at play here. 1. The requirement for a local bank account with which to fund his investments. 2. The not yet mentioned requirements of the SARB Exchange Controls as he is a South African Resident temporarily abroad, and in terms of the law, still subject to these controls (draconian as they may be).

The reason I mention item 2 is that when he transfers funds from offshore for investments either through a family members account or directly via a broker/fund manager, the recipient of the funds needs to make a declaration to the SARB (via the receiving bank in SA) as to the origin, purpose and nature of the funds (for Balance of Payments purposes). One can see this then unfolding into a problem, as the funds are non resident sourced, but are initially owned by a resident. The could then raise eyebrows and result in an admin nightmare trying to set the record straight with SARB post the event if the issue is identified. This could cost Delusionsofgrandeur some hard earned cash in additional banking charges as the receiving bank in SA would have to be his liaison party with SARB, and they don't do this for free, or cheaply either.

The issue of FICA as mentioned in the posts is correct when you are resident in SA. However, banks hold numerous accounts of people who are not resident in SA, and although still subject to FICA and KYC regulations, the requirements for this differ somewhat due to the nature of the of the residency status of the account holder. Therefore it is possible for an account to be opened with a SA bank subject to the applicable rules.

My advice -
Approach any one of the many banks in SA stating your current situation and that you wish to open an account to transfer surplus income earned whilst temporary abroad, asking them what documentary evidence they require to arrange for the opening. Any bank who says they want proof of residence in SA (like a rates account, etc) don't know what they are talking about so ignore them. and try someone else. Although this may take time to finalise, at least once it's done it's done. Then you should have no issues with SARB, Exchange Controls,  and transfering funds to your broker. Your foundation is in order and you can start to build on it. (You may have to provide this FICA/KYC info to a broker as well, dependant upon who you choose and their requirements.)

Just my 2 cents worth.
Agree - once you try and play fast and loose with the authorities you are looking for problems
Not everything that counts, can be counted, and, not everything that can be counted counts - Albert Einstein

Orca

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2013, 09:40:42 am »
He can bypass the banks and send the money directly to a broker. The foreign exchange rate will be done on his side by his bank. His brother can then deposit the money into the brokerage account.
Most of us opened a brokerage account via email and post anyway.
I sent money to a broker in Ireland. Did it all by fax. Simply got tax clearance from SARS with the total amount to be sent for the tax year and handed it in at ABSA and voila...
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

yozzi

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 10:30:00 am »
I also use a broker in the Isle of Man and have had no problems at all.

Made enquiries with them to buy the Satrixindi and seems pretty straight forward as if buying any other share and I'm now looking at the stxindi and Foord equity fund.

Patrick, I also looked at the Foord/AG scenario but would you invest with Foord before the stxindi?

Patrick

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 11:36:14 am »
Patrick, I also looked at the Foord/AG scenario but would you invest with Foord before the stxindi?

No, mostly due to the costs. But I'll leave the funds there for now for some diversification. I'm just not adding to them. All my new deposits are for the indi. My portfolio is now 70% Foord equity, and 30% STXIND.


Delusionsofgrandeur

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 03:29:36 pm »
Equity Fund    10yr20.8    5yr11.4    3yr15.9    2yr14.8    1yr17.3
Benchmark    10yr20.2    5yr8.6    3yr18.1    2yr15.0    1yr21.0

80% of fund managers don't beat the market, and these guys are part of that 80%. Plus they'll give you the honour of paying extra fees to give you those lower returns  :D

But if I couldn't buy ETFs I'd still much rather give Allan Gray the money than putting it in the moneymarket or the bank or something like that.

Not sure about the taxes, but I have a large chunk with FOORD equity and the taxes appear to be minimal.

If you're thinking of going the UT route, spend some time on equinox. Here's why I went with foord rather than AG:
AG: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/funddetails.asp?fundid=15722
Foord: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/funddetails.asp?fundid=16294

This page is pretty useful too: http://www.equinox.co.za/unittrusts/funds/fundperformances.asp

So what you are saying is that when all is said and done(Unit trust fees,UT taxes etc),the Eft Indi will yield greater returns(short-medium-long term) than a Unit trust from Allen Gray or any other reputable investment company?

If so,by what percentage does the Indi beat a Unit trust like the AG Equity Fund or Foord Equity Fund ?


Aragorn-So all I have to do now to make my money in my family members account legal and avoid any penalties and fee is to get the family member to declare the money to the South African Reserve Bank?If so,how do I go about starting this process for the family member in question to complete?

Also,I have a foreign bank account that I can use to  transfer money into an investment company's account.

Should I leave the South African account alone until I get the funds declared and use my foreign account to transfer money to an investment companies account?


Orca-I just got word from Imara SP Reid that I can invest with them as well!All I have to do is Fill in an Affidavit and get it signed by any commissioner of oaths.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 03:35:23 pm by Delusionsofgrandeur »

Patrick

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 04:04:06 pm »
So what you are saying is that when all is said and done(Unit trust fees,UT taxes etc),the Eft Indi will yield greater returns(short-medium-long term) than a Unit trust from Allen Gray or any other reputable investment company?
Yes, but not just me, the stats are saying that too. Here's some reading:
http://www.bdlive.co.za/personalfinance/2013/01/20/market-beats-manager-again
http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardfinger/2013/04/15/five-reasons-your-mutual-fund-probably-underperforms-the-market/
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-money-matters/can-the-pros-still-beat-the-market
http://www.iol.co.za/business/personal-finance/financial-planning/investments/beating-the-market-is-unrealistic-1.1383612#.UgJNHG3LL5k

If so,by what percentage does the Indi beat a Unit trust like the AG Equity Fund or Foord Equity Fund ?
Well the indi did 35.5% in the last 12 months, so it beat AG by 18.2%! But the benchmark they try to beat isn't actually the indi but the all share index (plus income). There just isn't an all share ETF, the top40 (satrix 40) is often treated as the all share, and that did 19.5% in the last 12 months, so that beat Allan Gray by 2.2%.

Wondering how big a difference that is over time:
R100k @ 17.4%  for 10 years (AG) = R497,371.58
R100k @ 19.5%  for 10 years (stx40) = R593,853.13
R100k @ 35.5%  for 10 years (stxind) = R2,086,377.80

Indi has just had a really good run (the market as a whole has actually been pretty good), who knows if it will continue, but if the top40 is beating the managers even with all this turmoil in mining you have to ask why anyone would use one.

Orca

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Re: SAtrixindi
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 05:59:20 pm »
STXIND  :TU: Less volatile than most stocks on the JSE as well. Has not had a correction by itself in years if ever. I can kick my ass for using Fund Managers for years when I could have simply invested in the Indi. :wall:
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.