Author Topic: Living off Dividends.  (Read 47920 times)

yossarian

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2013, 02:37:53 pm »
The rates in the linked document are out of date. But it's well written and presented.

Quote
Shares bought for the dominant, main and overriding purpose of securing the highest
dividend income possible will be of a capital nature when the profit motive is incidental
(CIR v Middelman supra).

Quote
3.2.1 Intention - the most important factor

The most important factor in determining whether a profit is of a capital or revenue
nature is your intention at the time when you bought and sold your shares
(Elandsheuwel Farming (Edms) Bpk v SBI 1978 (1) SA 101 (A), 39 SATC 163). If they
were bought as a long-term investment to produce dividend income the profit is likely to
be of a capital nature. But if you bought the shares for the purpose of resale at a profit,
the profit will be of a revenue nature.

In order for a profit to be of a capital nature you need not exclude the “slightest
contemplation of a profitable resale” (SIR v The Trust Bank of Africa Ltd 1975 (2) SA 652
(A), 37 SATC 87).

In general, in order to qualify as capital gains, you need to invest in shares that you could conceivably have lived off for their dividends.   If at some later stage you need to sell some shares for an incidental reason then that sale is very possibly "capital gains".  You can obtain an advance ruling from SARS if you want and if it's unfavourable take them to court.

LAPD-IT-G11 - Tax Guide for Share Owners

[updated link -- Yossarian]
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 03:15:06 pm by yossarian »

yossarian

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2013, 03:14:01 pm »
Quote from: act
1) For the purposes of this section—

"connected person" means a connected person as defined in section 1, provided that the expression 'and no shareholder holds the majority voting rights of such company' in paragraph (d)(v) of that definition shall be disregarded;

"equity share" includes a participatory interest in a portfolio of a collective investment scheme in securities;

"qualifying share", in relation to any taxpayer, means an equity share, which has been disposed of by the taxpayer or which is treated as having been disposed of by the taxpayer in terms of paragraph 12 of the Eighth Schedule, if the taxpayer immediately prior to such disposal had been the owner of that share for a continuous period of at least three years excluding a share which at any time during that period was-

     a) a share in a share block company as defined in section 1 of the Share Blocks Control Act, 1980 (Act No. 59
         of 1980);

     b) a share in a company which, was not a resident, other than a company contemplated in paragraph (a) of
         the definition of "listed company"; or

     c) a hybrid equity instrument as defined in section 8E.


 

2) Any amount other than a dividend or foreign dividend received by or accrued to a taxpayer in respect of a
qualifying share
shall be deemed to be of a capital nature.

 

2A)Subsection (2) does not apply in respect of so much of the amount received or accrued in respect of the disposal
of a qualifying share contemplated in that subsection as does not exceed the expenditure allowed in respect of that share in terms of section 12J(2).[Venture capital exclusion]

 

3)The provisions of this section shall not apply to any qualifying share if at the time of the disposal of that share the
taxpayer was a connected person in relation to the company that issued that share and-

a)more than 50 per cent of the market value of the equity shares of that company was attributable directly or
indirectly to immovable property other than—

i)immovable property held directly or indirectly by a person that is not a connected person to the
taxpayer; or

ii)immovable property held directly or indirectly for a continuous period of more than three years
immediately prior to that disposal; or

b)that company acquired any asset during the period of three years immediately prior to that disposal and
amounts were paid or payable by any person to any person other than that company for the use of that asset while that asset was held by that company during that period.

 

4)For purposes of this section, where—

a)any share has been lent by a lender to a borrower in terms of a securities lending arrangement, such
share shall for the purposes of the lender be deemed not to have been disposed of by the lender; and

b)any other share of the same kind and of the same or equivalent quantity and quality has been returned by
the borrower to the lender, such share and such other share shall be deemed to be one and the same share in the hands of the lender.

 

5)There shall in the year of assessment in which any qualifying share is disposed of by the taxpayer be included in
the taxpayer's income any expenditure or losses incurred in respect of such qualifying share and allowed as a deduction from the income of the taxpayer during that or any previous year of assessment in terms of section 11. Provided that this subsection must not apply in respect of any expenditure or loss to the extent that the amount of that expenditure or loss is taken into account in terms of section 8(4)(a) or section 19.

 

6)Where the taxpayer holds identical shares in the same company which were acquired by the taxpayer on
different dates and the taxpayer has disposed of any of those shares, the taxpayer shall for the purposes of this section be deemed to have disposed of the shares held by the taxpayer for the longest period of time.

 

7)The provisions of section 22(8 ) shall not apply as a result of the disposal of any qualifying share.

 

8)For the purposes of this section, where a company issues shares to a person in substitution of previously held
shares in that company by reason of a subdivision, consolidation or similar arrangement or a conversion contemplated in section 40A or 40B, such share and such previously held shares shall be deemed to be one and the same share if—

i)the participation rights and interests of that person in that company remain unaltered; and

ii)no consideration whatsoever passes directly or indirectly from that person to that company in relation
to the issued shares.

 

Subsection (1) comes into operation on 1 January 2013 and applies in respect of years of assessment commencing on or after that date.

The provision in the Act seems to post-date most of the court rulings.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 04:38:28 pm by yossarian »

Orca

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2013, 05:42:33 pm »
The fact that if you are withdrawing money other than divies monthly as an Income then it is INCOME. You will be taxed as Income revenue and not CGT. You are holding your shares for income.
SARS will ask you this. "What is your intention for holding these shares" What will your answer be? For income.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 05:53:09 pm by Orca »
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

Orca

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2013, 06:18:09 pm »
Now that first calculation was based on R350k withdrawals py. As you age, the less you spend. If I were to stay in SA then my circumstances would warrant a R18 000 pm withdrawal or R216 000 py. The divies will be an extra bonus.

Started with R667K and made 200% gains then retired. You will now have R2m.

The R667K bought you 20 000 shares in ABC.

R667 000.00/20 000 = Base Cost of R33.35 ps

Now your R2m will have a market value of R2m/20 000 shares = R100

Sell 2160 shares at R100 ps = R216 000

Cost price of 2160 shares at R33.35 = R72 036

Gain is R216 000 - R72 036 = R143 964

Tax = R14 474

Older than 65.

Tax = R8 084

From this you can deduct internet costs, a portion of your laptop cost and medical expenses. So on R18K pm plus divies you will pay less than R1 000 pm tax.
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

Patrick

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 08:05:33 pm »
Now that first calculation was based on R350k withdrawals py. As you age, the less you spend. If I were to stay in SA then my circumstances would warrant a R18 000 pm withdrawal or R216 000 py. The divies will be an extra bonus.

Started with R667K and made 200% gains then retired. You will now have R2m.

The R667K bought you 20 000 shares in ABC.

R667 000.00/20 000 = Base Cost of R33.35 ps

Now your R2m will have a market value of R2m/20 000 shares = R100

Sell 2160 shares at R100 ps = R216 000

Cost price of 2160 shares at R33.35 = R72 036

Gain is R216 000 - R72 036 = R143 964

Tax = R14 474

Older than 65.

Tax = R8 084

From this you can deduct internet costs, a portion of your laptop cost and medical expenses. So on R18K pm plus divies you will pay less than R1 000 pm tax.

I think you're forgetting something. The gain was R143 964. Capital gains means only 33% of that is taxed so income for the year is: R47 988...

That's well below the R67k threshold, so you'd effectively pay no tax.

Orca

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 08:27:42 pm »
No Patrick. My calculations are correct. There is no CGT if you withdraw monthly. It is income and tax is paid at your tax margin as revenue.
You are retired and withdraw monthly for income. It will not be CGT.
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

Patrick

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2013, 09:41:00 am »
No Patrick. My calculations are correct. There is no CGT if you withdraw monthly. It is income and tax is paid at your tax margin as revenue.
You are retired and withdraw monthly for income. It will not be CGT.

What's the cut off point? What if you withdraw every 3 months? or 6 months?

yossarian

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2013, 03:18:56 pm »
I think the crux of the matter is does a "qualifying share" (section 9C) override the other factors in determining if a disposal is of a capital or income nature.  A job for some tax expert to explain to us.

In simple terms Section 9C is the "three year holding period law"
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 03:31:14 pm by yossarian »

yossarian

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2013, 03:29:28 pm »
And bear in mind that this is brand new law
Quote from: act
Subsection (1) comes into operation on 1 January 2013 and applies in respect of years of assessment commencing on or after that date.

So whatever happened in the past is irrelevant really.  And I think the case law is probably superseded by the new provision in the Act.

The new law introduces a simple objective test to determine if a share disposal is of a capital nature.  If it's capital then the calculation I posted earlier demonstrating a selling R350k of shares (2/3 capital gains) tax free holds...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 03:37:47 pm by yossarian »

Moonraker

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2013, 06:07:29 pm »
And bear in mind that this is brand new law
Quote from: act
Subsection (1) comes into operation on 1 January 2013 and applies in respect of years of assessment commencing on or after that date.


I don't see, or can't find, any changes when compared to the pdf attached. Section 4.1. What exactly is 'the brand new law' ?

yossarian

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2013, 07:57:01 pm »
I don't see, or can't find, any changes when compared to the pdf attached. Section 4.1. What exactly is 'the brand new law' ?

My mistake.  It's been in its current form since 1 Oct 2007.  I was side-tracked by this line in the current Act: Subsection (1) comes into operation on 1 January 2013 and applies in respect of years of assessment commencing on or after that date.

The note you posted indicates that disposals of shares held for more than 3 years is capital.  Less than that is up for debate.  So my original calc is accurate...

Orca

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2013, 08:21:22 pm »
I disagree. My last calculation is correct.

Despite guidelines laid down by case law, the determination of whether the amount received or accrued on the disposal of a share falls on capital or revenue account is often a contentious matter which can lead to costly and protracted legal disputes.

As this directly affects me, I have done much research on it. The wording of these "laws" are such that only a court can decide what they actually mean.
Farmer vs SARS. Farmer has had his farm for 35 years and decides to divide his farm into plots and sell them individualy. The court found that his intention was for profit. So his gains were taxed as income.
The sale of your shares for an income will be considered as revenue.
I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.

yossarian

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2013, 08:14:01 am »
From the SARS note that moonraker posted :
Quote
19. Conclusion

Section 9C provides taxpayers with certainty that if they hold equity shares for at
least three continuous years the gains and losses on disposal will be of a capital
nature regardless of the intention
with which the shares were originally acquired. The
section has a much wider application than its predecessor (section 9B) in that it
covers unlisted shares and a member’s interest in a close corporation instead of only
JSE-listed shares. But not all types of shares qualify under section 9C; for example,
non-participating preference shares, shares in foreign companies (other than JSE-
listed shares) and participatory interests in portfolios of collective investment
schemes in property fall outside section 9C. Its provisions are now mandatory and no
election is required or even possible. The wider ambit of section 9C has necessitated
the inclusion of a number of anti-avoidance measures. The capital or revenue nature
of shares disposed of within three years of acquisition will continue to be determined
according to principles laid down by case law.

I suspect you are conflating the issue of having to declare your shares as trading stock.

Moonraker

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2013, 10:14:57 am »
Quote from: Orca
The fact that if you are withdrawing money other than divies monthly as an Income then it is INCOME. You will be taxed as Income revenue and not CGT. You are holding your shares for income.

If by 'withdrawing' you mean selling i.e. a disposal, and the share(s) sold are regarded as 'qualifying shares' (see yossarian's reply #16), then the disposal will be regarded as being of a capital nature, even if the share(s) disposed of were designated as being trading stock.

Quote
Section 9C draws no distinction between a share-dealer who carries on a distinct business of buying and selling shares for profit and a person who invests in shares as a long-term investment but speculates in some shares from time to time. The holding of shares by a share-dealer or the occasional speculator for at least three continuous years converts the amount derived on disposal from income to an amount of a capital nature. Amounts previously allowed as a deduction (for example, opening stock or interest on monies borrowed to buy shares) must be recouped on disposal of the shares and a capital gain or loss determined as if the shares had been held on capital account from the date of acquisition. Both categories of persons are subject to section 9C and do not have an option to elect out of the provision in order, for example, to claim revenue losses on shares held for three years or longer.
In the year of acquisition a share-dealer will be entitled to claim the cost of acquisition

The purpose of 9c is to provide clear guidelines - 3yrs. is the determining factor.

Orca

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Re: Living off Dividends.
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2013, 08:10:31 pm »
I have read all the "laws" on SARS website. They are so designed  as to give a "doubtful" or "debatable" meaning to the selling of shares as Ernst & Young have stated.
Most of the docs state that the meaning of the docs are not to be used as law and fact.
The court rulings will apply. Not the "laws" as stated.
Having read through many court cases vs SARS I can only conclude that the Intention is the main factor regardless of the "laws".
So if you are selling shares for income, then it will be INCOME and taxed as such. No way to get around this even if you have held the stocks for 40 years.
   

I started here with nothing and still have most of it left.