The JSE and finance forum for South Africa
General Category => Shares => Topic started by: bulldoggy on June 19, 2013, 02:56:11 pm
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The satrix indi is always at the top of the leaderboard, and when I checked it's history, it's always been good for years. Who decides what shares it invests in?
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It's according to the FTSE/JSE Industrial 25 Index, which is calculated by the JSE independently.
In effect, Mr Market decides what's in the fund, because it's the top 25 industrial companies on the JSE.
http://www.satrix.co.za/products/satrix%20indi.aspx
Actually, I think there was a SENS the other day, maybe Friday, where I think the FTSE/JSE were going through the process of rebuilding the indexes.
http://www.sharenet.co.za/v3/sens_display.php?tdate=20130612171300&seq=41
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Now you in my territory. Been watching STXIND for years. I stand to correction but I don't think any UT manager or any Fund Manager has been able to beat it. This is the top index to beat and that is why Patrick has included it in the LeaderBoard so the umm guys above it know they are..... well, better than Fund Managers.
STXIND has in my knowledge never had a correction bar the 2009 crash. So if you are not too good with stocks, I would recommend chucking all your money into it. Just watch it's performance on the challenge.
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http://www.satrix.co.za/products/satrix%20indi.aspx
http://www.satrix.co.za/documents/march%202013%20-%20satrix%20indi%20-%202013/04/10%20-%20quarterly%20fact%20statement.pdf
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Well the indi is back at March levels, so I'm thinking of putting some more cash down. The divi is back at January 2012 levels :wtf: so that looks like even more of a bargain...
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Might be cheaper later. One will never know and timing the bottom is impossible.
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I must say that it is great to have the 2 indexes highlighted. What a big diffs between the 2. The blue chip heavy 40 always lags behind the Indi by a long shot and has done so for many years.
Makes me wonder how many lagers below the STX40 will opt for the Indi in next year's competition or buy it for their real portfolios. I surely will when I retire.
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The STXIND is what the punters would call a safe bet and a banker. I have it in my real live portfolio and it seems to chug along quite nicely. I also think that if our economy was to improve markedly then much of the growth will come from those companies in the IND
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Am I reading this correctly that the STXIND has gone up nearly 147% in the last 5 yrs? I've got a property sale going through right now and with the proceeds this looks like the place to be for the long term?
Anyone been invested in the STXIND over the last 5 yrs?
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Am I reading this correctly that the STXIND has gone up nearly 147% in the last 5 yrs? I've got a property sale going through right now and with the proceeds this looks like the place to be for the long term?
Anyone been invested in the STXIND over the last 5 yrs?
Nope it's done 147% excluding dividends!
I only started with it this year unfortunately.
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You must also consider the fact that the first of the five years it was in the 2008/9 crash. Look at the 4y or 3y chart to get proper figures. My average is closer to 34% without divies.
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I am in stxind now over 18 months and has returned 60.7%. The divi is not great, about 1% i think and paid every 3 months.
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I am in stxind now over 18 months and has returned 60.7%. The divi is not great, about 1% i think and paid every 3 months.
Well chosen franz. :TU: Now you beating most if not all UT's all by yourself. No management fees as well. Only minimal admin fees if done on the JSE via a broker. If only I had known this 20 years ago. Ummm...... Actually it would not have worked back then. Only hit me now as I was typing.
Twenty years ago you would have had to buy the Sunday Times to get the price. Then schedule a time and day to see your bank manager. A week later you in his office and discuss the price you saw a week earlier. He gets on his phone and winds the handle 3 times to get a telephone operator who connects him to some broker in a smoked filled sleazy office somewhere. He in turn goes through the same procedure to connect to his aid at the JSE who immediately sends a telegram to the company saying that a customer wants to buy shares of a certain amount. Three days later he gets back to the bank manager with a price. He phones you and you agree even though the price has change significantly. Now you have to wait a week for the share certificate sent by post.
Now try and sell it. Eish.
Why am I rambling?
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I am in stxind now over 18 months and has returned 60.7%. The divi is not great, about 1% i think and paid every 3 months.
Well chosen franz. :TU: Now you beating most if not all UT's all by yourself. No management fees as well. Only minimal admin fees if done on the JSE via a broker. If only I had known this 20 years ago. Ummm...... Actually it would not have worked back then. Only hit me now as I was typing.
Twenty years ago you would have had to buy the Sunday Times to get the price. Then schedule a time and day to see your bank manager. A week later you in his office and discuss the price you saw a week earlier. He gets on his phone and winds the handle 3 times to get a telephone operator who connects him to some broker in a smoked filled sleazy office somewhere. He in turn goes through the same procedure to connect to his aid at the JSE who immediately sends a telegram to the company saying that a customer wants to buy shares of a certain amount. Three days later he gets back to the bank manager with a price. He phones you and you agree even though the price has change significantly. Now you have to wait a week for the share certificate sent by post.
Now try and sell it. Eish.
Why am I rambling?
Orca - you obviously weren't buying and selling shares 20 years ago. Most banks had centralised buying/selling and operations people called "brokers" within their operations were online to the exchange. A number of banks also had ticker tapes running in their large branches and you could read this on an ongoing basis during the trading day Also many share holders did not register their shares in their own names but kept them in a nominees name to obviate the "clean consideration" requirements to trade on the JSE. In fact the bank I worked for centralised their scrip operations in the 80's - I still hold all my shares in a bank nominee name to this day. Holding shares in nominees also served the purpose of remaining anonymous, and some used it as a means of hiding wealth from a spouse
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I suppose you right gcr. I was just imagining how it worked long ago. Perhaps 40 years ago?
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I am in stxind now over 18 months and has returned 60.7%. The divi is not great, about 1% i think and paid every 3 months.
Well chosen franz. :TU: Now you beating most if not all UT's all by yourself. No management fees as well. Only minimal admin fees if done on the JSE via a broker. If only I had known this 20 years ago. Ummm...... Actually it would not have worked back then. Only hit me now as I was typing.
Twenty years ago you would have had to buy the Sunday Times to get the price. Then schedule a time and day to see your bank manager. A week later you in his office and discuss the price you saw a week earlier. He gets on his phone and winds the handle 3 times to get a telephone operator who connects him to some broker in a smoked filled sleazy office somewhere. He in turn goes through the same procedure to connect to his aid at the JSE who immediately sends a telegram to the company saying that a customer wants to buy shares of a certain amount. Three days later he gets back to the bank manager with a price. He phones you and you agree even though the price has change significantly. Now you have to wait a week for the share certificate sent by post.
Now try and sell it. Eish.
Why am I rambling?
This is what happened to me last week!!!! :D
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I suppose you right gcr. I was just imagining how it worked long ago. Perhaps 40 years ago?
Nope from a bank point of view we used brokers directly and placed the funds in an escrow account with the broker - in my Durban days it was Richard Castle and Ferguson Bros.
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Hi guys. Im quite new to this. How would SatrixINDI work as an education investment, compared to the edufocus and other education investments like Old Mutual. From what I can see, the INDI is quite reliable with 3 times the growth
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Hi guys. Im quite new to this. How would SatrixINDI work as an education investment, compared to the edufocus and other education investments like Old Mutual. From what I can see, the INDI is quite reliable with 3 times the growth
Not sure what you mean but perhaps edufocus and Old Mutual are ultra conservative as in pension fund investing.
FSB does not allow 100% equities in pension funds. The Indi is 100% equities. FSB has recently alowed them to invest more equities for the extra growth.
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Perhaps I should give you more clarity. A conservative portfolio would have a portion of cash, money market funds and other low performing safe instruments included. This is to protect the investors from market crashes.
Had you been in a conservative portfolio during a market crash like the 2008/9 crash, you would not have lost as much as the Indi that is 100% equities. The biggest 1 day crash was -22%.
Now we, as active investors and watch the markets can do 100% equities for much larger gains as we can sell when the market crashes. Most UT's and pension funds ride out the crashes.
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For the STXINDI investors. She has broken through the resistance.
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Resistance is futile 8)
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Yes. Sentiment prevails as always but she broke through on high volumes. :TU:
This is a perfect example of resistance and breakthrough. Traders that bought at the first peak got disillusioned with the long dip and waited it out. They sold at even. The second peak at the resistance line. Once these sellers were gone, she carried on up through the resistance line.
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I was looking for performance similar to STXIND (seems impossible), how is the 36ONE MET equity.....
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I was looking for performance similar to STXIND (seems impossible), how is the 36ONE MET equity.....
Maybe an odd question, but if you want the performance of the STXIND, why not just buy the STXIND?
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Is it worth while investing in the SATRIX INDI now ?
if not, what price would be a good buy ?
should i invest directly with satrix on a monthly basis or do it myself directly ?
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You going to be trading it or investing for the long term? Lump sum once off or monthly for the long term? Really doubt you can trade it too much with it not being as volatile as normal shares. If you got a 3-5 year or longer horizon start now why wait. Who can time the market accurately anyway.
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I think for the most part i would want to keep it for the long term ( 3 years + )
a once off payment now and then monthly or when ever I have cash
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I have an article somewhere that I printed off the web that states doing the monthly thing is better than doing a once off payment. It was strange to read this as I would have thought going all in with a bang would give better returns.
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Probably due to the price fluctuation. Rand cost averaging. Please post it if you find it.
Back to the subject. Perhaps you can do some technical analysis for Junz on this one for a buy trigger?
I would just buy now in lump sum and continue investing monthly over and above if it's long term till I hit said growth number being 25x annual expenses 8)
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If you look at this chart, you can see that it has gone too high above the 100SMA and should retreat back down to it soon. Also the RSI shows that it is in the Overbought area. I would wait awhile.
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I say sell, but obviously not for technical reasons (strongly disagree with that stuff). I say sell because most of the big counters in the STXIND such as SABMiller, Naspers, Richemont are overvalued, and will struggle to provide the returns seen in the past.
If I where to buy an EFT right now Id buy Newfunds RAFI OVERALL, much better value in there.
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I have an article somewhere that I printed off the web that states doing the monthly thing is better than doing a once off payment. It was strange to read this as I would have thought going all in with a bang would give better returns.
Aha, found it. Here you go - http://www.fin24.com/Money/Money-Clinic/Investments/Investing-in-Satrix-40-20140117
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Look at the 3 year entry in the table. Massive difference!
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This would be pretty interesting. Let's say you buy R3000 worth of SatrixINDI shares every time it pulls back by, mmmmmmm a Rand. Or maybe it should be 5 Rand. That should make a massive difference in your profits. Of course you will need time on your side. Would be interesting to see the comparison if you did that on every dip.
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Look at the 3 year entry in the table. Massive difference!
I think you're misreading the stats Snakepit:
(http://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/2648/9c3e9c1db07f492297074c6d1d27f0c6.png)
As you can see in 1 year a lump sum beats a monthly debit order totaling the same value. Quite comfortably even. Where the chart is misleading is that if you look at the three year values, you're comparing a lump sum of R3600 with a debit order of total value R10800. What you need to do is take the three year return for lump sum and multiply that by 3 to see what a R10800 lump sum would get you. The figures are:
STX40 R16 512
STXIND R23 269
DBXUS R24 639
Notice how over a longer period the gap between lump sum and debit order widens. As a general rule, put whatever you have into it as soon as you have it. If you're sure you can time the market, then things are different. That idea though is part of what inspired this post: http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/how-to-lose-money-in-the-stock-market/
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Patrick, actually you are wrong. There is a big component that you are missing. You can't compare apples with apples. Somebody mentioned earlier in this forum about "probably due to the price fluctuation. Rand cost averaging". Remember, over a 3 year period you will via your monthly purchases, buy the dips. That would give you more bang for your buck as you are purchasing in those dips giving you more "shares" in the ETF for the same amount of money.
In those dips, the lump sum option will actually lose money and will most probably make it back once the market rises again, but the monthly oke got more out of that dip.
What I do agree with you is that the table is not correct. The comparison should be between a lump sum of R10800 and doing it monthly to a total of R10800 with R300 increments.
Of course there is another component that will mess all this up. Dividends. Let's say the lump sum oke got 1000 shares for his R10800 on day one and of course he gets dividends on 1000 shares for a period of 3 years. The monthly oke starts with, aaaaa, let say R300 and has 50 shares. Hmmmm thinking of this the monthly oke might start small but will have more shares at the end than the lump sum oke. So the month oke should earn more dividends towards the end.
Dem it would be nice to unravel this precisely with true blue information. Any volunteers?
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http://www.shareforum.co.za/off-topic/accuratley-calculating-portfolio-performance/
That's some messing around I did trying to answer the same thing you're pondering in a way.
Check out the Lazy trading system video on justonelap.com. Trading the indi, finis and resi in up and down trends.
I'm also back trading that strategy on Google finance to compare the performance between the 2methods.
Will update when all the data is captured
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Nios, does Simon's Lazy system really work? It seems you get in and out pretty late waiting for all his signals to align. He explained it to us about 6 years ago but I never investigated it deeper.
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So far so good.
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You can't compare apples with apples. Somebody mentioned earlier in this forum about "probably due to the price fluctuation. Rand cost averaging". Remember, over a 3 year period you will via your monthly purchases, buy the dips. That would give you more bang for your buck as you are purchasing in those dips giving you more "shares" in the ETF for the same amount of money.
In those dips, the lump sum option will actually lose money and will most probably make it back once the market rises again, but the monthly oke got more out of that dip.
Hmm, I've had a think about it and I think... I'm still right ;)
The only way buying monthly would be better, is if the dips drop lower than your initial purchase price, otherwise the lump sum bought straight away is better. I can see the dips being lower than the initial purchase for the first few months, but after a year or more there's very little chance bar a crash...
I would say the monthly purchase is lower risk though, as if there was a crash you'd get your rand cost averaging, but lower risk would again mean lower reward in the majority of cases.
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Okay that I do agree with. The pullbacks must be lower than the lump sum purchase price.
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Okay guys, I took the question about lump sum or monthly up the food chain. Article is here:
http://www.biznews.com/wealth-building-biznews-com/2014/06/investment-race-lump-sum-beats-debit-order-whopping-r500-000/
I just have one major concern. Right at the end just before the tables, Mike Brown mentioned this:
"Brown also looked at the transaction costs that apply to ETFs (these are different for unit trusts) and found that it seems to be cheaper to invest monthly rather than through lump sum investments"
With tax being the first evil and fees being the second evil in investing, I sort of feel that he left us hanging.
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Hi Guys,
I've been doing some research and would like to start investing. Naturally STXIND come up and it seems to perform quite well. I recently bought a car and have a balloon payment that I would like to pay off before it is actually due.
I have +- R1300 to put into the pot per month and I would like to do it over the next 4 years. Would putting this into the STXIND etf be wise? Should I split the amount and diversify into other etfs? or am I wasting my time.
I'm new to the whole investing game so any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi Guys,
I've been doing some research and would like to start investing. Naturally STXIND come up and it seems to perform quite well. I recently bought a car and have a balloon payment that I would like to pay off before it is actually due.
I have +- R1300 to put into the pot per month and I would like to do it over the next 4 years. Would putting this into the STXIND etf be wise? Should I split the amount and diversify into other etfs? or am I wasting my time.
I'm new to the whole investing game so any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
It's never a bad time to get into the indi. Take a look at it's all time graph: http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/advchart/frames/frames.asp?show=&insttype=&symb=ZA%3ASTXIND&x=49&y=9&time=20&startdate=1%2F1%2F1996&enddate=1%2F1%2F1999&freq=2&compidx=aaaaa%3A0&comptemptext=&comp=none&ma=0&maval=9&uf=0&lf=262144&lf2=0&lf3=0&type=64&style=370&size=4&timeFrameToggle=false&compareToToggle=false&indicatorsToggle=false&chartStyleToggle=false&state=15
Not once in it's history will you find a 4 year period where you lose money. And things are actually better than the graph suggests as it doesn't take into account the dividends.
If we take the historical average of 20%, your R1300 a month will be worth +-R100k in four years time, or about R80k in todays money: http://www.investorchallenge.co.za/calc_compound.php?initial_deposit=0&monthly_deposit=1300&yield=20&years=4&inflation=6
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As a follow on to the last post, take a read here: http://www.etfsa.co.za/news/_latest/satrix_indi_focus_aug2012.pdf
I love the graph, percentage of unit trust funds that don't beat the INDI. Over 5 years not one unit trust fund could beat it!
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The indi's at an all time high again. In the last 12 months it's gained 17.3% including divvies. Not bad for such an up and down year.
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The indi's at an all time high again. In the last 12 months it's gained 17.3% including divvies. Not bad for such an up and down year.
According to Sharenet it is up 24% but that is a day old. Reuters shows 27% until now.
The DIVTRX shows 17%
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The indi's at an all time high again. In the last 12 months it's gained 17.3% including divvies. Not bad for such an up and down year.
According to Sharenet it is up 24% but that is a day old. Reuters shows 27% until now.
The DIVTRX shows 17%
Actually I think you're right Orca, the satrix site shows to 30 September, I didn't read the fine print. I'm very pleasantly surprised!
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Bought a large amount in Jan 2014 @ R51.24 so to date around 43% gain!
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This chart is for the naysayers on MBB that want links because they do not believe me. I have been allowed back on after being banned for promoting this type of investment above UT's and RA's.
This clearly shows an ave gain of 40% over 5 years.
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This chart is for the naysayers on MBB that want links because they do not believe me. I have been allowed back on after being banned for promoting this type of investment above UT's and RA's.
This clearly shows an ave gain of 40% over 5 years.
Are those both shown in rand terms/dollar terms or just growth as a % compared against the S&P500?.
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To get the chart to show percentages, I had to compare it to another stock so I chose S&P500. It is in ZAR terms plus one has to take into consideration that the dividends are not included.
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I love that chart! I think it's quoted somewhere up in this thread that not one fund manager has beaten the indi over a 5 year period!
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The chart of DBXJP vs STXIND looks just as great for the STXIND over a 5 year period. The DBXJP has only done better this year.
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To get the chart to show percentages, I had to compare it to another stock so I chose S&P500. It is in ZAR terms plus one has to take into consideration that the dividends are not included.
Are you sure about that?
Comparing Indi vs DBXUS over 5 years both JSE and in rands gives 178% for indi and 246% for the dbx
and on a side note, how on earth do you insert google finance images? do you screen grab, cut out then insert or is there an easier way?
It gives a link - but I cannot work out how to use it.
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Your numbers are quite correct Mr_D. I do it in Reuters but choose JSE stocks in ZAR.
I screen grab and crop it in "Paint" and "Save As".
Here, I Click on "Attachments" then "Choose File". It goes to Windows Explorer and when I locate it, I click on it and "Open File".
It will then appear here in the box next to "Choose File". Then post.
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Unbelievable how well stxind does. Will it ever see a huge correction?
What will happen to it if naspers takes a huge dive?
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Will it ever see a huge correction? maybe... but with China transitioning to a more consumer based economy.. tencent should still have quite a bit of wind under its wings, unless someone specifically shoots it down.
if naspers takes a huge dive.. then the stxind will dive proportionally... just look at SAB last month when it gained ~20% in a session, stxind gained over 4%... the reverse could also happen....
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So what were the top performing unit trusts over the last 10 years: http://www.moneyweb.co.za/investing/unit-trusts/sas-top-unit-trusts-over-the-last-ten-years/
SIM Industrial Fund R 20.79%
Coronation Industrial Fund 20.17%
36ONE MET Flexible Opportunity Fund A 19.15%
Stanlib Industrial Fund R 18.06%
Investec Property Equity Fund A 17.68%
STXIND over the same period? 20.91%. Not one unit trust in South Africa beat the indi. So more effort = less returns. All the stats I have show that 80% of fund managers can't beat an index globally, but they're generally 3 or 5 year stats. I'd love to see some 10 year plus stats for the world market. I suspect over time the number of losing managers will grow.
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Did you guys see that NPN is now something like 22% of the STXIND??
http://www.sharenet.co.za/free/sens/disp_news.phtml?tdate=20160112120000&seq=19&scheme=default
That sounds a bit scary to me, but hopefully Naspers continuous onwards & upwards!
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So too SAB
45% just in those two