Author Topic: ETF buy/sell spread awareness  (Read 7977 times)

Ejectzero

  • I've just arrived
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
ETF buy/sell spread awareness
« on: February 20, 2017, 10:27:48 am »
I've conducted an informal experiment today and thought it interesting enough to share here.

I hold an ETF-only portfolio on EE in four diverse ETFs.  I save remaining money distributed evenly in these monthly.  I considered broadening my portfolio to contain more ETFs but wanted to first see the difference in brokerage commissions.

I used the demo account and bought 4 R1000 ETFs and compared the buy and sell costs with 1 R4000 ETF.  I bought everything (4X R1000 + 1X R4000) and then sold it immediately and repeated this exercise twice.  For good measure I bought and sold a third R4000 ETF.  ETFs were chosen at random. 

In terms of brokerage costs alone I saved a marginal R0.36 (0.01%) by only buying and selling one specific ETF compared to 4 different ones.  However, The buy and sell spreads made a startling difference:  On average I lost R38.46 (1.0%) more to the buy-sell spread when selling the four small ETFs (hence the repetition of the experiment - to consolidate this). 

One ETF: MAPPSG's R1000 investment was sold at only R650 and was removed from above calculations.

The take-home for me is:  Less, but better ETFs are key.  From now on I will evaluate and ETFs' buy-sell spreads in the demo account before considering its purchase.  This is why I would never day trade! 

I'd love to see somebody with an ABSA account replicate this perhaps?  I can provide raw data if required.  What are your experiences/ strategies for your passive investing accounts?

EZ

« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 10:30:59 am by Ejectzero »

MoneyChief

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: ETF buy/sell spread awareness
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2017, 10:54:01 am »
It is a trade-off between annual expense and spread at buy in some cases. The Ashburton Top 40 ETF costs 0.18% per year vs the Satrix top 40 that costs 0.39%. The Satrix has smaller spreads, so cheaper to buy, but in the long term the higher annual expense will hurt more than the loss at buy.

I hold four ETFs in my Absa account, money divided equally between them. Each month I select the one that is currently valued the lowest of the four and buy the full monthly amount of that ETF (buy low). If I were to sell some to live off of, I would sell the one that is currently valued the highest of the four (sell high).

Ejectzero

  • I've just arrived
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: ETF buy/sell spread awareness
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2017, 12:31:34 pm »
Thanks Moneychief, your buying and selling strategy sounds like a good plan!  I'm considering to only buy 2/4 every month based loosely on the same criteria.

At some stage in the future I will check if the Expense ratio and the spreads are linked.  I suspect its rather linked to liquidity, because my experiments points out that the spread is higher on average when selling four small holdings, opposed to one big one.  MAPPSG is presumably not a popular ETF to buy and sell.  Obviously this leaves a lot of questions, which we can investigate in the future. 

EZ

Mr_Dividend

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
  • Karma: +21/-0
    • View Profile
Re: ETF buy/sell spread awareness
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2017, 12:35:29 pm »
Have just be taken by EE. They where quoting R34 on DIVTRX this morning - hit sell, still quoting R34, so sold - immediately, it said I got R29  - this was at 09H47

Now, I sale had been completed at 9:07 for 3400

20/02 09:07   AT   2950   475
20/02 09:07   AT   2947   1,000
20/02 09:07   AT   3400   695
20/02 09:07   AT   2940   600

But why are they quoting the last sale price, not the BID price???? even a 15 minute delayed bid would have been better - yet they able to give you the bid price seconds after completing the sale? ABSA does, and you do not pay for live pricing with them...

Will be moving to ABSA's TFSA as soon as we are able. Did call EE, but they say cannot do anything ( just looking at getting transaction fees back).

Not a happy camper.

Hamster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
  • Karma: +13/-0
    • View Profile
    • Off Topic
Re: ETF buy/sell spread awareness
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2017, 01:12:09 pm »
On the other hand, when you hit sell or buy on EE it happens immediately and you don't have to wait for your limit order to be executed.

I have my ABSA TFSA at the ready though. When we can start moving (one day...hopefully) I might just do it since I transact maybe a handful of times during the year on it.

PlatinumWealth.co.za

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Karma: +10/-1
  • Weekend Investor
    • View Profile
    • Platinum Wealth Group
Re: ETF buy/sell spread awareness
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2017, 01:17:55 pm »
Have just be taken by EE. They where quoting R34 on DIVTRX this morning - hit sell, still quoting R34, so sold - immediately, it said I got R29  - this was at 09H47

Now, I sale had been completed at 9:07 for 3400

20/02 09:07   AT   2950   475
20/02 09:07   AT   2947   1,000
20/02 09:07   AT   3400   695
20/02 09:07   AT   2940   600

But why are they quoting the last sale price, not the BID price???? even a 15 minute delayed bid would have been better - yet they able to give you the bid price seconds after completing the sale? ABSA does, and you do not pay for live pricing with them...

Will be moving to ABSA's TFSA as soon as we are able. Did call EE, but they say cannot do anything ( just looking at getting transaction fees back).

Not a happy camper.

I cannot find the exact post just now but it was close to this one https://www.platinumwealth.co.za/forum/Thread-Stock-Watch-Thread?pid=2394#pid2394 where EE explained how their buy and sell pricing works. There are a few EE reps on that forum you can either ask or PM Jono directly he will respond to your questions there.

I did the opposite again  :P I moved from Absa to Capitec and EE hehehe
www.PlatinumWealth.co.za <- South African Investment and Finance forum.